Feeling discouraged. Pity party. Please cheer me up.

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So since we've become more aware, in the last week I've been specifically looking to see all 7 of our Dwarf Cories at once. They were a mistake for this 90g - cute, but so small they generally escape my attention. I've noticed in the last week that even when the cories are stressed (during WC), and both the dwarfs and punctatus are all hanging out together, there are only 6 dwarfs. I see 6 dwarfs quite often - but just 6.
We suspect that perhaps this all started with a dwarf cory dying and us not noticing. It's hard to be sure because the tank is so large, the dwarfs are so small, and there are a million places they could hide. But I would bet a lot that there are only 6 dwarfs in there. The other a victim of disappearing fish syndrome (we took out the driftwood a few days back to do a really in-depth vacuum, so we would have found a body then).

Also, regarding the hydrogen peroxide, I realized about 30 min afterward that I did SO MUCH spot treating that I totally OD'ed the tank. Cue another big water change. Also it was such an OD that I probably killed my bio filter. AARGH
 
I know it can be frustrating when this happens in a new tank but we all seem to need to go through it at least once so that we become better aquarists in the long run.
That being said, I read in your original post that you spent so much time researching and so much money on subsequent meds and what not but what I didn't read was where you quarantined the new fish before you put them in your tank. Did you do this?
Unfortunately, one of the downfalls of todays box stores and even Mom & Pop shops with centralized systems, is that the fish you are buying are in with all the other fish in the system. So even if your fish looks good, if there are sickly looking or sick fish in the system, your fish is now a carrier. Worse off is the fact that just the normal act of catching, bagging , transporting, then re-acclimating the fish into a new environment can be very stressful on the fish. Now take the fact that the fish is a carrier of a disease and he goes under some stress, the disease kicks in and BAM!!!!! you got a problem. The best solution to this is to use a quarantine tank for any fish you want to put into your main system. ALL fish and invertebrates need to be in there for minimum of 3 to 4 weeks to make sure any diseases that may be hiding in, on or around the fish are caught before you infect the main tank. Why the inverts also? Because snails and other inverts are known carriers of parasites. So you want them to be by themselves with no hosts to feed on so they die off on their own with no medication. A simple tank is all you need. Bare bottomed is better so there is no gravel or substrate for any diseases to hide in. A HOB filter, heater, lid and some decor for security is about all you need. This way, you can see the fish, observe their behavior, appearance, habits and such before you put them into the main tank. When the time comes, make sure you do a proper acclimation from the qt tank to the main tank or all your efforts could be wasted.

Hope this helps
 
That being said, I read in your original post that you spent so much time researching and so much money on subsequent meds and what not but what I didn't read was where you quarantined the new fish before you put them in your tank. Did you do this?

You got me. No, I did not. /hanging head in shame. Honestly I always thought that was "a saltwater thing".

This has been on my mind for future acquisitions. Now that I have a 10g hospital tank, that's going to be my quarantine tank as soon as the main tank is "fixed" and I can safely return my snails to it (they are out now because of the meds). I've been fishless cycling a HOB in a bucket for media to use in the quarantine tank filter (I did put in media from my main tank, but the meds made it less than effective, so I have to WC for my snails every day).
 
I just realized, I should bring up re: quarantine, I fishless cycled my tank and added all the stock at once. So quarantine was not really on the table for me anyway.

Maybe this is a drawback to the whole fishless cycle thing.
 
I just realized, I should bring up re: quarantine, I fishless cycled my tank and added all the stock at once. So quarantine was not really on the table for me anyway.

Maybe this is a drawback to the whole fishless cycle thing.

I know it doesn't seem to make sense to QT the first inhabitants of a new tank, however, from a cost-of-meds perspective, typically it costs less to treat the volume of the QT tank than the volume of the display tank.
A fishless cycle done properly allows you to add close to or all of your stock all at once. But in hindsight, a phased approach might be more practical. Of course this could end up taking a long time to do :(
Perhaps one can perform a fishless cycle and QT the first batch at the same time (to cut down on time). Even if one were doing a fish in cycle, you would still want to QT new stock.
 
I know it doesn't seem to make sense to QT the first inhabitants of a new tank, however, from a cost-of-meds perspective, typically it costs less to treat the volume of the QT tank than the volume of the display tank.
A fishless cycle done properly allows you to add close to or all of your stock all at once. But in hindsight, a phased approach might be more practical. Of course this could end up taking a long time to do :(
Perhaps one can perform a fishless cycle and QT the first batch at the same time (to cut down on time). Even if one were doing a fish in cycle, you would still want to QT new stock.

You hit it on the head!!! Have you seen the price of meds these days ? You can go broke medicating a large tank. :blink: Using a small(er) hospital tank to save $$$ in meds is just a side positive to really consider. I actually use 5 gals of water in a 10 gal tank whenever possible and it's practicle. This way I can measure out the 10 gal dosage of powder and cut that in half. It further extends the cost saving aspects. (y)
 
I just realized, I should bring up re: quarantine, I fishless cycled my tank and added all the stock at once. So quarantine was not really on the table for me anyway.

Maybe this is a drawback to the whole fishless cycle thing.

I'm an old fuddy :D and back when I started keeping fish, we never did fishless cycling (and we didn't automatically lose fish while cycling either.) I understand the concept but there are some drawbacks as I see it. For example: If you cycled a tank with, say, 10 adult Guppies, you knew that when you have finished with the nitrite cycle and your ammonia and nitrite readings went back down to 0, you had enough nitrifying bacteria present in the tank to support those 10 adult Guppies. If you added fish to the tank, you would do it gradually to allow the BB bed to catch up to the new bioload. Most of the time, you would never even see a rise in the ammonia level during the process as it happens rather quickly depending on how many fish you added. If you took out those 10 guppies and replaced them with 10 similar sized/ type fish, the bacteria bed wouldn't need to grow because you removed then added so your bioload stayed the same. ( It's the concept so don;t spend too much time thinking about which fish would be the same as what you have in there ;) )
Now, keep in mind that the test kit reading for Ammonia and Nitrite look the same whether there are the 10 guppies in the tank or there were 1000 guppies in the tank. With a fishless cycle, HOW DO YOU KNOW how much bacteria bed has been created and what amount of fish life can it support? At best it's a guess which is why you always want to gradually add fish to a tank especially if it's a newly cycled tank. (y)

This is the only major drawback I see from this method HOWEVER, if done carefully, it shouldn't make a difference. At least that's how I see it ;)(y)

Hope this helps :)
 
I think that's why you generally fishless cycle to support an unreasonably HIGH bioload. Of all my various complaints, fishless cycling is one where I have no complaint! It let me learn about my tank as I prepped it, and then it was "ready". Mine could clear 5ppm ammonia in less than 20 hours (I was sleeping for the last 8 so it could have taken 12 hours for all I know). So that is way more than I could stock it with.

Fresh2o I'm not arguing, but I still don't see how I could quarantine the full set of inhabitants for a 90g in anywhere but the 90g! I'm not being snarky so don't misread my "tone", I'm just curious how I could have quarantined with the "stock it all!" method. I mean then the big tank IS the quarantine because the first inhabitants are the first inhabitants. I think the answer is just "don't stock it all" but I really had no quarantine opportunities there.

I spent $100 getting the meds for this tank overnighted when everyone was sick :( Kill me... Although actually most of the money was spent on the overnight shipping. I didn't think the meds themselves were that outrageous.
Now if I were buying them at Petsmart then they ARE outrageous, I just bought them online from National Fish Pharmaceuticals. The prices are pretty reasonable. And I could have bought half the amount I did - just finished my last dose and I have over 50% left.
 
No snarky tone taken. You're right: you can't stock them all at once. I mean you COULD since the filter has been cycled. But at the risk of introducing something, it may be wise not to do so. This would even apply to the first GROUP of fish to be added. If anything appears during QT, at least you would have an opportunity to treat them before they get into the display tank.

I wished I followed my own advice. The last fish purchase I made with in OCT 2012. Six long-fin blue danios from one of the big box stores. Did not QT them and a week later I am treating with Ich meds. It was only a 20g tank so treatment was not that expensive (no shipping cost; picked it up at same store fish were purchased). It was expensive time wise (about 3 weeks). Vowed not to introduce any new fish in that tank unless they were QT'd.

Of course this is all hind sight. When things clear up in your display tank and you are ready for new fish, it is strongly recommended that they go through a QT process.
 
I think that's why you generally fishless cycle to support an unreasonably HIGH bioload. Of all my various complaints, fishless cycling is one where I have no complaint! It let me learn about my tank as I prepped it, and then it was "ready". Mine could clear 5ppm ammonia in less than 20 hours (I was sleeping for the last 8 so it could have taken 12 hours for all I know). So that is way more than I could stock it with.

Fresh2o I'm not arguing, but I still don't see how I could quarantine the full set of inhabitants for a 90g in anywhere but the 90g! I'm not being snarky so don't misread my "tone", I'm just curious how I could have quarantined with the "stock it all!" method. I mean then the big tank IS the quarantine because the first inhabitants are the first inhabitants. I think the answer is just "don't stock it all" but I really had no quarantine opportunities there.

I spent $100 getting the meds for this tank overnighted when everyone was sick :( Kill me... Although actually most of the money was spent on the overnight shipping. I didn't think the meds themselves were that outrageous.
Now if I were buying them at Petsmart then they ARE outrageous, I just bought them online from National Fish Pharmaceuticals. The prices are pretty reasonable. And I could have bought half the amount I did - just finished my last dose and I have over 50% left.

If you knew what I used to pay for meds, you'd see it is more expensive today than before PLUS the good meds are no longer available to us in the hobby :( But if you are okay with the cost, so be it. It's not my wallet ;)

Again, you are assuming that the amount of ammonia you used to cycle fishlessly would be equivalent to the fish load you put in. Apparently, if you didn;t have a readable amount of ammonia after you added your stock, then I would say you were correct. The fact that your tank has had problems with this first load of fish however makes me think it didn't. A newly cycled tank has the cleanest water it will ever have after the initial setup. Clean water should have helped or prevented any sick fish from getting worse. See where I am going with this? I understand you are new to fish keeping so I'm just trying to help you fill in the blanks. :flowers:
In the past year, I have cycled 7 tanks, all with fish in them, and lost none due to cycling. It was done by NOT overloading any one tank with a full load of fish. You may want to keep this in mind when your tank straightens out. (y)

Hope this helps (y)
 
Once you have cycled one tank. Then you will always have media to start another so all the other tanks should be easier to fish in cycle. You should always add extra media in the main tank so you can 1) instantly start a new tank 2) instantly set up a quarantine tank when required.

Something I have learned recently is that again, you should always quarantine new arrivals. I have lost a Cory a GBR and a gourami to this parasite.

The problem I had is that I couldn't identify what parasite it was. Different meds use different ingredients so I used one product and it didn't work. I finally added api general cure which I had to source from USA because of strict rules here in the UK which require you to have a prescription for the meds in API GC. It seems to have finally gone. 1 box of 10 sachets treated my 47 gallon just enough to follow the instructions of 2 doses.
I have spent so much money on meds lately that my cabinet looks like an apothecarys handbag.

One thing about being an aquarist is that you are always learning. You will never know everything and everybody no matter how much research they did will have had problems at some stage.

When I set up my first tank a 10 gallon, i didn't know about the cycle, I filled it with too many fish with fish that weren't compatible. I was doing a water change once every 2 weeks and I murdered lots of fish...lots.

So this time I wanted to do it right. I had everything right then one new arrival brings in a parasite. Funnily enough I go back to the LFS and all his GBRs are in quarantine. I felt like a failure when I was losing fish again. But all are on the road to recovery now. Don't give up.

Being an aquarist you learn so many skills, you learn about biology, chemistry, plants, lighting, aqua scaping, when you have a poorly fish you practically become a vet! You learn about species, behaviour, characteristics of fish and it hurts when you lose one. But Every time you do you learn from it and become a better aquarist.

Hang in there.
 
Threnjen,
I say amen to Caliban's post and others before his. If you have a like and desire to learn new things then you have 80% of what it takes to be a good aquarist. Many people try and give up this hobby because they just don't want to read the instructions.
Kudos to you, OS.
 
Threnjen,
I say amen to Caliban's post and others before his. If you have a like and desire to learn new things then you have 80% of what it takes to be a good aquarist. Many people try and give up this hobby because they just don't want to read the instructions.
Kudos to you, OS.

+1 (y)
 
One of the best threads I've found on this site! Hang in there therjen! Like caliban was saying.. You're only honing your skills with every hiccup, none of this comes easy, otherwise every place you walked into would have a glorious tank running flawlessly;)
 
Oh gosh I missed I had some new responses! Sorry everyone. Thank you, you've all been so wonderful, it really helps.

I didn't want to be argumentative with Andy without something else constructive to offer, but I promise I never had ammonia or nitrite :) I am very Type A and I tested my water every day for 2 weeks and logged it on a spreadsheet. WHAT? I LIKE spreadsheets!!! I really do. I like testing.

Anyway, today I found out why my fish got sick!! I didn't really find out WHAT they got sick with (any more definitively than I diagnosed myself) but it was still somehow a relief to REALLY KNOW why they got sick.

The dwarf cories that I mentioned (maybe? or different thread?) were the last to be added to the tank, a week after I stocked everyone else. The weekend I stocked everyone else, the dwarfs were in quarantine at the LFS. I didn't ask why because the employee didn't say they were sick, just "in quarantine and unavailable for sale". I just assumed they were new and being watched after arrival.

We went back to the LFS today to get some plants and I saw they were in quarantine again. Got to chatting with two of the employees and they are definitely sick =| And whatever it is they are treating them again. They are just treating with a general cure. So they couldn't tell me WHAT to treat for. But they were interested to hear about my experience and what I'M treating for..

Anyway we hypothesize what happened in our tank:
1) brought in 7 dwarfs
2) one of them died (there are only 6 now, no body)
3) punctatus cories ate it
4) punctatus cories all got sick

Other fish in the tank contracted columnaris as well, but I believe the cories probably ate the dead dwarf and internalized the infection. After all, only cories have died, no other species in the tank. And everyone else seems to have recovered with medication, but the cories are still dying off (lost one yesterday)

Today I did a therapeutic (for me) recovery job on the tank now that the medication round is complete. Bought a whole bunch of new plants. Took everything out of the tank and moved the remaining 3 punctatus cories and the 6 dwarf cories to the 10 gallon for isolation. Spent a few hours planting all of my new things. The tank looks lovely. I'm hoping everyone in the main tank will be well from here out!! And if the cories continue to be ill, at least now they are alone.

I can't stop looking at my tank, it looks so pretty. And I ordered a new light for it, so soon it will be even better!

I've learned a tough tough lesson from this whole ordeal. The 10g is going to be a QT tank, forever. No one is EVER going straight into the display, EVER AGAIN!!!!! EVER!!!

Thanks for tagging along with my highs and lows (y)
 
I think most of us have learned that quarantine lesson the hard way! So don't feel bad. :)

Some people will keep repeating the same mistake though, always convincing themselves that "just this once it will be ok"

One thing I have learned about keeping fish is there's not much room for being impulsive or impatient.

"Add fish in haste, repent at leisure"
 
No arguments here. Just laying out some things that may help (y) I was out of the fish biz when fishless cycling started so I'm not as used to it or fully understand it's need but to each their own ;)

The best thing about this whole experience is that if you follow what we all have been telling you, you should never have to deal with this again ( at least not in your display tank(s) (y)

Feel free to PM me any questions along the way :)
 
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