GH/KH Killing Shrimp?

[KatieJ]

In short: 5g planted (thread: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/5-gallon-planted-170750.html ) with two or three surviving rcs from a mysterious die-off. They were all acclimated for an hour using the drip method, and all lasted wonderful until they started dying one-by-one. I'm trying to figure out the cause. I dose DIY CO2, but the levels are green according to my drop checker.

So I went to the local fish store today to see if they knew what was going on. I had my water tested for everything juuust to make sure I wasn't making a mistake on something during my own tests. Here are the results:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5
pH: 7.4 (this is a drop from around 8.2 before I started my DIY CO2 3 weeks ago. )
GH: 0
KH: 22

The employees I talked to think that the lack of GH compared to the ridiculously high KH is what's killing my red cherry shrimp. One of them suggested I buy Seachem Equilibrium to up the GH, but I'm tight on money and it'd just be another chemical I'd need to add to the tank, which I want to avoid. The store's staff are VERY knowledgeable and trustworthy unlike chain stores; I'm just hesitant on jumping into another purchase.

So. Should I get the product, or is there something else I can do? It turns out my city's tap water runs through a softener, which is what stripped the GH and other minerals. I can't afford to just buy RO water or their own water for every water change - I don't have a car and it'd be very awkward carrying 50 lbs of water on my bike very week. Thoughts?

 

[KatieJ]

Argh, I just realized this is probably in the wrong forum. Could a mod move it to the FW: General forum or whatever's more appropriate? Thanks, and sorry!

 

[fort384]

Moved to FW General Discussion.

What is the temperature of the tank? Is it heated? Since it is a planted tank, are you dosing anything fert wise?

 

[KatieJ]

Yes. Temp is a steady 74ish. I'm unfortunately having to rely on one of those unadjustable hydor mini heaters (the rectangle ones for bettas). I might by another theo in the future, as the one I have right now is for my 2.5 long betta tank.

Dosing initially was literally a few drops of Excel and Iron everyday, and a few drops of Comprehensive twice a week. Since I started IY CO2, I'm not dosing Excel anymore. I cut back to dosing the Comprehensive once a week and am holding off on the iron for now, because I recently found out that too much of it can contribute to algae outbreaks (I have a diatom problem right now).

 

[mfdrookie516]

Ya know... iron seems to be a common denominator in unexplained shrimp deaths. Fort, didn't you pretty much end up blaming flourish iron for your CRS deaths?

 

[fort384]

Yup, that's exactly where I was going Rook. It seems like in a few cases, I have seen massive shrimp die off when dosing chelated iron. It could be coincidence....

Your GH and KH are out of whack, but if you acclimate properly I would have a hard time attributing that to a massive die off. Shortened life span, maybe... But only after several molts.

 

[KatieJ]

Yeah, which doesn't really make sense. I always figured that GH and KH were kind of like pH - that is, as long as they were stable, they were good to go. Is there any way I can reduce the KH and add the GH, or am I pretty much stuck with it?

About the iron thing... should I just go ahead and dose it sparingly from now on (like, once or twice a week instead of every day)? It could be a number of factors killing the shrimp.

 

[mfdrookie516]

I would say stop dosing the iron completely and see how they do. Is there a specific reason you're dosing it in the first place (ie red plants, etc)? I've never dosed iron.

 

[KatieJ]

Eh, I did have some rotala rotoundifolia and still do, but it had initially melted almost completely after I'd brought it home. There's only a few small stems that are coming back very healthy, so I figured the iron was benefiting them.

 

[fort384]

I would look at some of the mineral additives from mosura. They would safely bring the GH up. Reducing KH will be tricky without a good DI filter.

I agree with Jonathan- Stop dosing Fe for now. Even with rotala R you can get some reds out of it if you just keep the tank N limited.

 

[mfdrookie516]

Yeah, my rotala rotundifolia is bright pink and I'm not dosing iron.

 

[KatieJ]

Gotcha, thanks; I'll try that. What mosura products do you recommend?

 

[fort384]

Take a look... They have a couple of mineral additives that are beneficial to FW shrimp. I personally have never used them because I have never had a GH/KH issue. I have used several mosura products though aNd they do work well (but they are expensive). The reason I recommend using mosura over other additives is that they are specifically recommended for shrimp... So it would be the safest way to go.

 

[KatieJ]

*wince* Expensive indeed. Ugh.

Retested the GH and KH just to be sure the guy at the LFS was accurate. Turns out he wasn't, not with the KH. I got 20 drops, and he had 25 (but wasn't inverting the test tube after each drop, only after several drops). Either way, it's still really high. The GH on the other hand is zilch for me.

Considering I'm on a tight budget, would it really even matter if I invested more money in additives? Looking back through my water test notes, I saw that the pH had dropped from 8.2 to 7.4 in all of two weeks after I'd added CO2. I never expected it to be that much. Perhaps that's what killed the shrimp?

 

[mfdrookie516]

Does epsom salt not raise GH? Without doing any google searching, I always saw empsom salt sold as ferts as a 'GH Booster'. Maybe I interpreted it wrong?

 

[fort384]

No... You are right Jonathan. I just think that in light of the fact that we are trying to eliminate potential reasons for die off it would be good to go with a sure thing... But the mosura stuff is probably Epsom salts with a 3000% markup.

I wouldn't attribute it to your pH drop from co2 injection. Lowering pH by injecting co2 does not have the same effect as lowering it by other means. And... The levels you are at are well within the tolerance of FW shrimp. I ran co2 at much higher levels than you are without experiencing die off.

 

[KatieJ]

Hm. Something must have changed in the water and maybe they couldn't handle the sudden stress. I just don't know. The remaining 2 or 3 shrimp are still alive and kicking.

I'm starting to wonder if just those few guys are even enough to keep the nitrogen cycle going. Would it be safe, at this point, to try adding another batch of shrimp (after a long, long drip acclimation process)? What about ember tetras? Still having trouble finding boraras brigittae around here, but I'm scared of trying since my KH and GH are so messed up.

 

[KatieJ]

I think it might have been a combination of the Excel dosing I was doing a while ago in addition to the Iron and maybe Comprehensive. I looked at the Comprehensive ingredients and there is a teeny tiny bit of copper in there, but it wouldn't be fatal if it was only dosed at literally a few drops once a week, right?

 

[fort384]

The Cu content in comprehensive is too low to cause an issue. I also wouldn't blame it on glutaraldehyde (excel). I have used that stuff very liberally in shrimp tanks with no ill effects. The only thing I have seen that seems to have caused a problem was dosing chelated iron. It happened to my tank, and it happened to one other person's tank (besides yours) that I know of.

 

[KatieJ]

Hmm, perhaps the iron could be the culprit, then. Would it be safe to try another batch of shrimp (20 or so, maybe more) in the next week or so since I know what to watch out for? Or is the KH/GH thing too out of whack...