Goldfish emergency

[Lollipops]

When I say leave the heater on, I don't mean make the water warm; just keep it from being cold. I use my heater to keep my goldfish tank at 72 degrees and out of the 60's.

 

[Lollipops]

The fin rot SHOULD clear up before the ich does. Fin rot treatment time is usually 7 days. Take the carbon out before you put medication in.

 

[Potluck]

You have to leave the cartridge in as that's what builds your beneficial bacteria so that the tank cycles, as long as you don't go over 74-76° is fine as fungus/bacteria grows very slowly at that temp (under 76), but also beneficial bacteria grows slow as well, with the cartridge cut a slot at the bottom and empty out the carbon and put it back in the filter.

You want to treat for the recommended amount then treat for a following week week as ich has a 4 day cacoon cycle (what falls to the substrate that breaks open and releases 300-1000 more ich) , I would also get garlic guard, or you can make your own by grating garlic on a lemon zester and soaking the food in it and feeding it to the fish, this is not a cure, it makes the food like candy to the fish and also improves immune system so they can fight what they affected by.

Don't be worried as ich gets worse before it gets better, follow instructions on the med paraguard is good I've heard but I've luckily not had many issues, but I am in the final days of ich treatment myself so don't know how I got it as my tank is absolutely well maintained with no sick fish, water parameters are always 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10-20 nitrate (tanks planted) pH 7.4-7.5

But I don't have goldfish so my treatment is way different than yours.

After fully treating the tank put a new cartridge in WITH carbon to remove the meds.

 

[Lollipops]

Let me be more thorough in my posting:

If you use 5x dose of Prime, you will not need to be concerned for the ammonia/nitrite problem, and can set it aside until after treating the illness. This will allow your bacterial culture to grow too. Hooray.

Areomonas hydrophila is the bacterial culprit for fin rot. It's optimum growth temperature is aprox 17C; that's 62.6 F.

Here's the journal with the data:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC376351/pdf/applmicro00120-0041.pdf
but I attached a graph from their article that demonstrates. (Please note that the temperature on the bottom goes from high to low, and the line with the circles is your bacteria of interest.)

People have the misconception that for bacterial growth, it's "warmth good, cold bad" for bacteria. And that's why they think fin rot gets worse with increased temperature. This is not true. A common over simplification. Like majority of organisms known to man, there is an optimum temperature; not just "hotter better" or what not.

By raising your temp FARTHER from 62.6 F, in either direction, you will slow the grow rate of the Areomonas hydrophila.

Your heater is fine.

((will post momentarily about the filter cartridge.))

 

[Lollipops]

Again, if you are using Prime, you can let your ammonia and nitrite go, and your temp will be up, both of which will help the bacteria culture grow.

Unfortunately, when you get your medication, you must remove any carbon that will bind with it. Sadly, that will take out a portion of your filter where bacteria have been growing, but bacteria do grow on other surfaces, albeit mostly in the porous ones; it's not a complete loss.

If you carbon is IN your filter cartridge, which I believe it is (sorry, I didn't google your filter) you can cut open the filter and pour out the carbon. Get a bucket of your tank water, and pour/rinse out the filter in tank water. Then you can keep the filter going with the filter cartridge, and keep your bacteria.

 

[Potluck]

Fungus and bacteria grows better in warmer water. That is why when fishless cycling it is suggested you crank the heat up, to facilitate the growth of good bacteria. Unfortunately this is true of all bacteria and fungi both good and bad (just think of bread mold, or bacteria in bathrooms)

The truth is if your fish is being kept in a tank where the temperature is appropriate, then higher temperatures can actually harm your fish. No matter what reason your betta has fin rot warmer water is not going to help him. If the fin rot is a virulent strain of bacteria like*Flavobacterium columnare*(columnaris), which strikes fast and furious, raising the heat may actually contribute to an early demise. In a case like that, lowering the temperature will help slow down the growth of these nasties. As will increase in water changes.



This is what I've read as the one major issue I've had was columanaris which you LOWER the tank temp

 

[Lollipops]

I've read that article, but I would recommend going to a scholarly journal. I'd trust it more than some random person on MyAquariumClub, writing that article:

http://www.myaquariumclub.com/does-raising-the-heat-help-with-fin-rot-3876.html

which states:
"Fungus and bacteria grows better in warmer water. That is why when fishless cycling it is suggested you crank the heat up, to facilitate the growth of good bacteria. Unfortunately this is true of all bacteria and fungi both good and bad (just think of bread mold, or bacteria in bathrooms)

The truth is if your fish is being kept in a tank where the temperature is appropriate, then higher temperatures can actually harm your fish. No matter what reason your betta has fin rot warmer water is not going to help him. If the fin rot is a virulent strain of bacteria like Flavobacterium columnare (columnaris), which strikes fast and furious, raising the heat may actually contribute to an early demise. In a case like that, lowering the temperature will help slow down the growth of these nasties. As will increase in water changes."

 

[Lollipops]

If you research Flavobacterium columnare, you'll find that it is the cause of a certain fish illness, but generally not the common fin rot we're seeing here. If you think it's columnaris disease, that's an entirely different matter.

The person who created that post did a bad job lumping it together with fin rot. Columnaris is another illness entirely, with different symptoms.

 

[Parasitica]

The white fluff and fin deterioration in a super short amount of time sounds like what's going on. This is the worst fish infection wise. Will the Paraguard still work if it's Columnaris instead of a fungus?

Edit: They have no problem eating though; they're still just as ravenous as normal.

 

[Parasitica]

How do you know which one it is?

 

[Potluck]

columanaris is absolutely devastating as I lost 21 fish, I haven't seen images of what the op called fluff I just see what looks like fin and tail rot, unless that's what they are talking about, but bacteria in fish is the same as in humans just a bit different, as that's why they tell you to keep your house under 70° because bacteria grows more slowly if it even grows or worsens at all, your graph just means that the fin and tail rot "can start growing at that temp" it does not mean that it nessessarily slows down at increased Temps as bacteria in all aspects good and bad grow faster and spread faster at higher Temps , water changes are more important than temp In this case

 

[Parasitica]

The last reply on page 3 has a pic of the fluff on the sickest fish.

 

[Lollipops]

Poor fish looks ravaged spots in earlier posts look like ich. You might not have fin rot at all. It would make sense to have just columnaris, rather than ich AND fin rot. But who knows when you introduce new fish?

 

[Parasitica]

Will the Paraguard treat this or should I focus on another antibacterial?

 

[Potluck]

I'm very sorry to say this and I hope I'm wrong but that indeed looks like columanaris to me theres 4 strains of it the first and most deadly will kill your fish in 24 hours, the last strain will slowly kill your fish over a period of time, it is very hard to treat but its treatable, you need a gram negative and gram positive antibiotic, furan 2 and kanaplex which what was recommended to me, I can't give advice on this as I failed drastically when I had it and lost my whole stock in a month.

 

[Lollipops]

columanaris is absolutely devastating as I lost 21 fish, I haven't seen images of what the op called fluff I just see what looks like fin and tail rot, unless that's what they are talking about, but bacteria in fish is the same as in humans just a bit different, as that's why they tell you to keep your house under 70° because bacteria grows more slowly if it even grows or worsens at all, your graph just means that the fin and tail rot "can start growing at that temp" it does not mean that it nessessarily slows down at increased Temps as bacteria in all aspects good and bad grow faster and spread faster at higher Temps , water changes are more important than temp In this case

The bacteria that affect humans are adapted to our 98.7F body temp. That's why in the case of bacteria that are bad for humans, its generally the "hotter, the better," but that's because our human bodies tend to be the hottest living thing around. (I know birds get a bit hotter, but that's besides the point...)

The graph IS for growth rate. The temperature I sited it the peak of the graph, representing the fastest growth rate, where growth rate decreased at anything way from optimum. The entire line marked with circles shows the entire range at which it can grow.

Unfortunately, it means nothing if it's not fin rot + ich, and is columnaris instead.

OP, it's up to you Ich doesn't typically look fluffy unless it's really bad AND their slime coat is getting all funky. Does the fish look lumpy? Is it just a layer, or does it look like FUZZ liek cotton?

 

[Lollipops]

Really hoping its not columnaris but it definitely looks worse than ich.

Good luck with the LFS tomorrow Bring them lots of quality pictures

 

[Parasitica]

Unfortunately the sickest passed away, but I still have three other fish to help. The mean one is still separate, and I just separated the now worst one from the tank as well to try to help the biggest one because he seems the least sick. In the morning I'll hit up my local pet stores to get the medication so I can start treatment ASAP. They're all sick, but so far none of them are as bad as the little guy was. I'll keep posting once treatment starts to keep you guys updated.

 

[Parasitica]

Do you think the one fish will be okay without a bubbler until tomorrow?

 

[Potluck]

Do you think the one fish will be okay without a bubbler until tomorrow?

Columanaris is the devil, yes the no bubbler is fine they aren't really nessessary either I do have them in my tank as I do feel the more oxygen the better, don't cross contaminate tanks, the outcome of the fish are grim I will just be 100% honest with you, but the bright side is this..

If the fish don't make it you have now learned that you have to cycle a tank before adding a fish, you can also upgrade filter or just modify that one, if you have the lighting a 10 gallon is very nice to do plants in and you can get the correct fish for the tank, if they don't make it you will I'm assuming needed to sterilize the tank, reset it back up, let it cycle, get an api master liquid test kit so you know when the tank has fully cycled, do research in the mean time on the nitrogen cycle, fish illnesses, what to look for and what you can put in a 10 gallon which isn't much, could be an amazing nano tank though, I'm sorry to hear about the fish I've lost many over the years here recently my 3 clown loaches which was absolutely heart breaking (no you cannot put them in a 10 gallon), when fish keeping you will have bad things happen but if you keep up on the tank maintenence, make sure your fish are healthy, a good diet, the best water conditions you can achieve, in not eating fish won't get such cause they will but not nearly as bad or as often, also live plants will help take care of the tank for you as well, the rewards of having a beatiful tank is worth it, this pic is from a month ago my plants are bigger now but my tank is in shambles right now cause of my ich treatment