HELP! Nitrites...

[KimAnnKitz]

Let me start with the tank info first to get that out of the way.... Fluval Spec V (5 gallon) I betta, 2 mollies, 1 mystery snail. Tank has been set up since February 11 and stock was added one at a time. The LFS told me I could keep 2 mollies in a 5 gal with my betta so I really don't need to hear lectures about that. The tank is also heavily planted. Right now my EMERGENCY issue is the NITRITES... please just give me info on the NITRITES for now... Nitrites were slightly high on Monday and I did a 50% water change....here's today's story:

Woke up this morning to see one of my Mollies had died. I had been having trouble with this tank spiking ammonia every single day, now the Nitrites have gone crazy. Of course I removed the fish and tested the water. The NITRITES were off the charts purple. Did over a 75% water change immediately and then retested Nitrites. They are still reading off the charts after the water change! HELP!!! Do I do another water change immediately?????? I use Prime and Cycle. My other Mollie is not acting herself either. I have to stress that they were both fine and begging for food last night when I went to bed. I have had one of them for 3 weeks and the one that died for almost two weeks. The were very active up until today and came to the glass to see if I was going to feed them whenever I stopped to "talk" to them. So I believe the fish were happy and healthy in the tank. I test the tank almost daily....and until Monday was getting ZERO readings on both Nitrites and Nitrates, but the ammonia was high. Today the Nitrite was off the charts purple and the Ammonia was 0 ppm.

Some background: I added a Seachem Ammonia Alert a couple of weeks ago because of the constant high ammonia readings and that allowed me to relax a little with the DAILY water changes I was doing. Switched to every other day. I began to suspect that I was overdosing PRIME and that might be causing my weird ammonia readings. I had read that it is not a problem to OVERDOSE PRIME, but I realized that I WAS overdosing greatly by guessing at the amount to put in my 5 gallon. I honestly think the PRIME was causing the ammonia but perhaps keeping the Nitrites and Nitrates at 0. This is just my opinion, but the ammonia has went down drastically since I corrected the dosing of the PRIME. The Ammonia today was ZERO after 3-4 weeks of spiking to 1-2 ppm every single day. So I caution everyone to use the correct dose of Prime in their tanks. For a 10 gallon tank the dosing is 1 ml (if I am converting correctly), so for a 5 gallon I assume the dosing is .5 ml. I did some more research though and for small tanks Prime should be added at the rate of 2 drops per gallon, but I do not have a small dropper bottle. I am using a medication dosing syringe now to dose the tank. Right now though, I would appreciate all the NITRITE help I can get! Why didn't it drop after I did the 75% water change? And again, should I do another immediately? Or are my readings off because I just added the PRIME and CYCLE.... I don't want to lose the other Mollie or my Betta. I have had the betta for 2 months..... I do have other tanks and have been keeping Bettas for almost a year. The oldest tanks is, of course, perfectly cycled. The other 4 were set up within a few weeks of each other and are doing much better than this one. Am beginning to think I should have stayed with the Jungle Right Start instead of switching to Prime for these small tanks.

 

[pip walters]

Seems odd that ammonia has been consistently high in a heavily planted tank, but high ammonia nlrmally leads to a peak in nitrite.

A possible theory is that, due to heavy planting, oxygen levels are dropping considerably at night, which can lead to denitrification, converting nitrate back to nitrite and nitrous oxide.

I suspect it is more likey the pH has crashed.... do you have a reading for pH? Low pH will inhibit the beneficial bacteria that convert nitrites into nitrates. Plants will also utilise buffering agents in your water, lowering the pH in the process.

Bettas are fairly robust as they can breathe atmospheric air,.surviving in pretty poor conditions in the wild.

A little more info please.

I don't lecture people on stocking as correct water maintenance often proves many theories about stock densities to be somewhat vague, but I am sure you are aware of the size mollies achieve.

 

[KimAnnKitz]

Seems odd that ammonia has been consistently high in a heavily planted tank, but high ammonia nlrmally leads to a peak in nitrite.

A possible theory is that, due to heavy planting, oxygen levels are dropping considerably at night, which can lead to denitrification, converting nitrate back to nitrite and nitrous oxide.

I suspect it is more likey the pH has crashed.... do you have a reading for pH? Low pH will inhibit the beneficial bacteria that convert nitrites into nitrates. Plants will also utilise buffering agents in your water, lowering the pH in the process.

Bettas are fairly robust as they can breathe atmospheric air,.surviving in pretty poor conditions in the wild.

A little more info please.

I don't lecture people on stocking as correct water maintenance often proves many theories about stock densities to be somewhat vague, but I am sure you are aware of the size mollies achieve.

My pH was very low (6) a few weeks ago when the ammonia was high, but I added some crushed coral to the filter compartment to help with that but it didn't do much. I didn't check the pH today, but I did check it on Sunday and it was 7.4. I will check it and post the reading in just a bit. I do also now have a small piece of holey rock in the aquarium. After I added that my pH did come up to 7.4

I know bettas are tough and appreciated them for that fact. I was not aware how big Mollies can get until I did some more reading on them...I know that many stores will sell you something just to sell it but the people at this store seem like they genuinely care and he could have sold me a more expensive fish that I liked. He told me that it would not do well. The tank is very boring with just the betta in it. There is very little activity and I want some companion fish that are more active. My Betta hids in the anacharis or is plastered against the water intake all the time. He did get a little more active with the addition of the Mollies but was not overly agressive, nor were the mollies aggressive toward him. Mollie number 2 is pregnant (bought her in that condition) but she is not acting herself at all today so I am afraid I will lose her too...

Thanks for your help so far. Do you think that I would perhaps need to add a bubble stone to this tank? I don't know if you are familiar with the Fluval Spec line but there is not a lot of surface agitation with the type of filter system they have.

Thanks and I will post again in just a few!

 

[KimAnnKitz]

This is making no sense to me at all. Here are my current readings after TWO 75% water changes TODAY:

Nitrites: 5+ ppm
Nitrates: 40 ppm
pH: 7.4
Ammonia: 0 ppm

I don't have a clue what to do right now to save my Mollie and my Betta doesn't seem very happy. I did use PRIME and CYCLE during the change.

Another water change? Throw my hands in the air and walk away?

 

[jglover]

Prime should detoxify the nitrites and it should last for about 24 hours. You wold dose it at 5 times the normal strength for a nitrite emergency. Prime should also detox any ammonia in the tank as well and the Seachem ammonia alert should le t you know if there is any free ammonia, so it sounds as if Nh3/NH4+ is ok.

Are you sure the nitrite reagents are still good? It seems unlikely it went bad overnight, but maybe run your tap water and see if it shows clean.

 

[Luananeko]

Dosing prime at 5x the normal dosage as recommended above will help with the nitrites in the short term, but have you decided on your long term plan? The situation is going to just get worse as the molly grows. I'd recommend rehoming the molly and getting something more suitable to the tank size as a betta companion. If you're looking for activity and are willing to do weekly 30-50% water changes then swapping the molly for a school of nano fish (stick to 5) such as Neon Green Rasbora (Microdevario Kubotai) or Chili Rasboras could work.

 

[fishyd]

On a side note, have you tested your tap water? I'd be interested to see if there might be a problem there.

 

[KimAnnKitz]

On a side note, have you tested your tap water? I'd be interested to see if there might be a problem there.

Thanks everyone. I have tested my tap water and it is fine. The test reagents seem to be fine also. I tested my other tanks and got good readings. I ended up doing 4 water changes in that tank today and still have Nitrites of .25 to .5 ppm. I will do more water changes tomorrow and hope I can beat this. I'm not really sure what else to do. I honestly think the extra Prime dosing got me into this mess in the first place because of some of the research I have done on my own, so I am a little hesitant to dose at 5x the recommended .5ml for my tank. Maybe I am doing it wrong, but when I was overdosing the Prime my Ammonia WOULD NOT come down. Now it is down and the Nitrites are up. I am willing and plan on doing 50% weekly water changes. I have been doing almost daily or more the 1x a day water changes now for almost 8 weeks trying to get this tank in line. I also have other tanks that get at least 1 50% weekly water change.

I have never seen any of the Rasboras you are talking about at my LFS or at any other pet store near me. That's why I am relying on the store owners to make suggestions as to good fish for my 5 gallon tanks (I have 3). I live in an area that doesn't have a lot of fish stores, in fact the one I go to is 30 miles from me and the only one I'm aware of for at least 80 miles so I don't have a huge selection of fish. I saw some sort of rasbora at the LFS but he told me they were not a good idea. I can't remember why. Unfortunately, I am attached to my Mollie and don't have a bigger tank for her. I also don't have any friends with tanks big enough for her. I will do my best to keep her healthy and happy. Hopefully this Nitrite problem will work out soon. If I had the space in my house, I would have a bigger tank. My aquarium keeping started out with a single betta, then the desire to have a few more bettas. Thus the small tanks which are ideal for me and my space. Any suggestions as to tank mates is always welcome. I tried RCS and killed them all with my ammonia spikes so they aren't a good idea either.

 

[jglover]

Prime will not bring your ammonia concentration down, what it does is detox the free ammonia, converting to an ammonium salt. Amquel, Zeolite resins, etc also do the same, converting free ammonia to ammonium. Unfortunately, the API kit measures total ammonia concentrations, including ammonium salts, as total ammonia. So even though the ammonium is not toxic to the fish like free ammonia, it will still give a positive result until the bacteria consume it....then you will see it decrease to zero. That's one reason the Seachem ammonia alert is helpful as it will show just the toxic, free ammonia in your tanks.

You'll probably need to keep up with the water changes until the nitrites read zero, but if your ammonia test is reading zero, you are already on your way to getting things under control.

 

[Mebbid]

You say there are things you don't want discussed but they are at the heart of your problem.

You don't like it but the molly either has to go or you need a bigger tank period. A 5 gallon tank can't support the bio load of the molly and betta as evidenced by your uncontrolled spikes of ammonia after months of having the tank set up.

The prime has absolutely nothing to do with your high ammonia readings. The prime detoxifies ammonia as was stated earlier and the "false readings" that was mentioned refers to the ammonium being read by the test kits rather than the ammonia. The nitrogen is still there it's just converted into a less toxic form.

The best advice I can give you since you aren't going to rehome the molly is to reduce the amount you are feeding to a small pinch every other day and keep up with enough water changes.

 

[KimAnnKitz]

You say there are things you don't want discussed but they are at the heart of your problem.

You don't like it but the molly either has to go or you need a bigger tank period. A 5 gallon tank can't support the bio load of the molly and betta as evidenced by your uncontrolled spikes of ammonia after months of having the tank set up.

The prime has absolutely nothing to do with your high ammonia readings. The prime detoxifies ammonia as was stated earlier and the "false readings" that was mentioned refers to the ammonium being read by the test kits rather than the ammonia. The nitrogen is still there it's just converted into a less toxic form.

The best advice I can give you since you aren't going to rehome the molly is to reduce the amount you are feeding to a small pinch every other day and keep up with enough water changes.

I'm sorry to anger you about my Mollie. The ammonia spikes happened before I added her to the tank so I'm pretty sure she didn't cause them. The ammonia spikes happened when the tank only had a betta and two snails. The Nitrites just started yesterday.

My readings today are:
Nitrite - 2 ppm (I think those colors are so close)
Ammonia - 0 ppm.
That was after a 80% water change, so I am not off to do another.

I have another question. I did just add DIY root tabs to my aquarium and am seeing some of the osmocoate coming to the surface of the substrate. (I didn't make the root tabs, but bought them from someone who did) Could this be causing a problem???? I really want to know if there's something that I have done that I can correct that has caused this.

 

[KimAnnKitz]

Also....I want to add that this tank has only been set up since FEBRUARY 11, not months. It obviously has never fully cycled. I have been testing and doing water changes as needed. I do not let the fish set in bad water. I am just very surprised by this constant NITRITE that I can not get rid of after FIVE water changes of at least 75%.... I have a plant substrate with a layer of black Tahitian moon sand over that, if that helps anything.

 

[pip walters]

As many will have realised, I don't subscribe to the 'tank isn't big enough for the bioload' theories. It is the filter that deals with bioload. The tank may be too small for a fish if that fish's maximum size is considered by us humans to be too large for its surroundings.

Information that suggests that a certain fish 'needs' 55 gallons, for instance, does not specify if other fish can be added to that 55g or if that fish needs 55g to itself, or what type or size of filter ks required. It is all too vague, imo. However, I know the OP is aware that mollies can grow quite large. Mature fish can reach 8 inches...... how many hobbyiststs ever give mollies the conditions to reach this full potential? How many members on here have seen 8inch mollies.

Thousands of fishkeepers keep and breed fish very successfully in tanks that would be considered too small if we are to stick rigidly to the recommendations on certain sites. These fish per gallon suggestions should be seen as rough guidance and more focus put on water chemistry and maintenance, which is exactly what the OP wants and needs here.

 

[pip walters]

This is making no sense to me at all. Here are my current readings after TWO 75% water changes TODAY:

Nitrites: 5+ ppm
Nitrates: 40 ppm
pH: 7.4
Ammonia: 0 ppm

I don't have a clue what to do right now to save my Mollie and my Betta doesn't seem very happy. I did use PRIME and CYCLE during the change.

Another water change? Throw my hands in the air and walk away?

I'm not really familiar with Prime, but if it somehow locks ammoniacal nitrite, then it must make it unavailable to the beneficial bacteria?? Therefore,.adding cycle may be futile. It seems ammonia.is being dealt with, but not nitrite, so the nitrobacter are not developing quickly enough...... they are slow starters anyway and take at least three weeks to get going on nitrite properly, they would certainly have been inhibited by the low.pH you experienced.

Try doing a series of small water changes, 10% per day for five days and add enough cycle for half a gallon each time you add new water. Don't use prime. Trust me, the small amount of chlorine in your tap water dissipates quickly and should not affect anything here. Test nitrites daily and let me know if there is any difference.

 

[Luananeko]

As many will have realised, I don't subscribe to the 'tank isn't big enough for the bioload' theories. It is the filter that deals with bioload. The tank may be too small for a fish if that fish's maximum size is considered by us humans to be too large for its surroundings.

Information that suggests that a certain fish 'needs' 55 gallons, for instance, does not specify if other fish can be added to that 55g or if that fish needs 55g to itself, or what type or size of filter ks required. It is all too vague, imo. However, I know the OP is aware that mollies can grow quite large. Mature fish can reach 8 inches...... how many hobbyiststs ever give mollies the conditions to reach this full potential? How many members on here have seen 8inch mollies.

It's not just an issue of bioload size and managing water parameters through water changes and filtration... It's an issue of fish activity levels. Would you put a Siberian Husky in an apartment? Sure, you can manage the bioload (vacuuming up fur, potty breaks outside, etc), but it's vastly lacking in space for the dog to get the exercise it needs. That kind of dog would go stir crazy unless it spent most of it's time out of the apartment burning its energy off. Fish don't have that luxury. They're in that box 24/7 and can't get out to stretch their fins.

Mollies are decent bioloads as well as active fish. Yes, it can survive in that size tank, but it will be stunted and shorter lived even if the best of care is taken of the water parameters.

OP - I've never heard of root tabs causing issues, but depending on what organic matter makes them up it's possible. As most organic matter decays it will go through the same ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle, so if too much of the root tab dissolves at a time it could be spiking the parameters. 5 gallon tanks are so easily thrown off that between the root tab, the tank adjusting to the new inhabitants, and the fact that the cycle never completed is kind of the perfect storm.

I know you're attached to your molly, but it's best for both the fish and the tank's ecosystem as a whole if you rehome it and then wait for things to get fully cycled and balanced before attempting to add anything new. If your LFS doesn't have much selection of nano fish you can always look at ordering some online. Wetspottropicalfish.com is fantastic and carries a wide variety of nano fish that would be much better suited to the tank than the molly.

 

[pip walters]

It's not just an issue of bioload size and managing water parameters through water changes and filtration... It's an issue of fish activity levels. Would you put a Siberian Husky in an apartment? Sure, you can manage the bioload (vacuuming up fur, potty breaks outside, etc), but it's vastly lacking in space for the dog to get the exercise it needs. That kind of dog would go stir crazy unless it spent most of it's time out of the apartment burning its energy off. Fish don't have that luxury. They're in that box 24/7 and can't get out to stretch their fins.

Mollies are decent bioloads as well as active fish. Yes, it can survive in that size tank, but it will be stunted and shorter lived even if the best of care is taken of the water parameters.

OP - I've never heard of root tabs causing issues, but depending on what organic matter makes them up it's possible. As most organic matter decays it will go through the same ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle, so if too much of the root tab dissolves at a time it could be spiking the parameters. 5 gallon tanks are so easily thrown off that between the root tab, the tank adjusting to the new inhabitants, and the fact that the cycle never completed is kind of the perfect storm.

I know you're attached to your molly, but it's best for both the fish and the tank's ecosystem as a whole if you rehome it and then wait for things to get fully cycled and balanced before attempting to add anything new. If your LFS doesn't have much selection of nano fish you can always look at ordering some online. Wetspottropicalfish.com is fantastic and carries a wide variety of nano fish that would be much better suited to the tank than the molly.

With respect, I don't think I said it was just an issue of water management and what I was suggesting is that we as hobbyists are quite capable of determining what we consider to be enough space for our fish.

I disagree with the concept of a fish being stunted by the size of tank, it is not as simple as lack of space and there are far too many recorded contradictions to this. In my own experience of intensive farming of Cyprinid species, lack of space has very little effect on growth. IMO, the biggest cause of aquarium and pond fish not reaching their full potential is poor feeding.

I believe a molly could grow close to full size in 5 gallons of pristine water, although I would be inclined to use imperial gallons

To use an anology involving a husky, or let's face it ANY dog permanently in an apartment is not a great argument for space for fish in aquaria as the dog would grow to its full size and, again with correct feeding, would not necessarily suffer poor health. Where do we go with analogies? Is it ok to keep hamsters... nomadic animals that, in the wild, can cover two or three kilometers in a single night..... in any size cage? Or a canary in a cage? Or a snake in a vivarium? All of these animals have different physiological needs to fish and yet we routinely keep them in vastly smaller environments than they would enjoy naturally.... are they stunted?

As I have posted before, the amount of space we give our fish, regardless of how well we keep their environment, is down to human morality. Thankfully, we as humans generally use common sense to dictate these kinds of decisions and where lack of knowledge may lead us to err initialy, we have the capacity to learn from our own mistakes and from the advice of others.