High School Project Help

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

vipman10

Aquarium Advice Newbie
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
7
I am conducting an independent project for my high school Biology class. I plan on using a 2 liter soda bottle (cleaned of course) to create a "micro ecosystem" I myself am a reptile/amphibian lover and have not really inquired about fish or aquariums before. The "blueprint" I was planning on using calls for an Elodea/Anacharis plant, a feeder guppy :fish2: , small snails, about 1-2 inches of sand/rock mixture in the bottom, and then leaf debris. My first concern is that there will not be enough space for said guppy to do his "thing" whatever that may be with fish. second, I can't seem to get any of the Elodea or snails (where would I get these?) The whole point of this is to create a closed and self sustaining ecosystem. I could really use some help. :)

P.S. I live in Southern California Area code 92124
 
I am conducting an independent project for my high school Biology class. I plan on using a 2 liter soda bottle (cleaned of course) to create a "micro ecosystem" I myself am a reptile/amphibian lover and have not really inquired about fish or aquariums before. The "blueprint" I was planning on using calls for an Elodea/Anacharis plant, a feeder guppy :fish2: , small snails, about 1-2 inches of sand/rock mixture in the bottom, and then leaf debris. My first concern is that there will not be enough space for said guppy to do his "thing" whatever that may be with fish. second, I can't seem to get any of the Elodea or snails (where would I get these?) The whole point of this is to create a closed and self sustaining ecosystem. I could really use some help. :)



P.S. I live in Southern California Area code 92124


You could maybe do fresh water shrimp instead of fish. The space really is a bit small for a fish.

Local fish stores in your area would be the place to go


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice
 
I recommend bettas, preferably a female. its also possible to get a baby.
 
You could maybe do fresh water shrimp instead of fish. The space really is a bit small for a fish.

Local fish stores in your area would be the place to go


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice
I've checked Petco and Petsmart already. They don't seem to have any Elodea plants. How many shrimp would I be able to put in there? Would they munch on the Elodea?
 
I recommend bettas, preferably a female. its also possible to get a baby.

I was told at least a gallon of space for betas. Would they eat the Elodea plants/micro organisms or would I need to introduce some other thing for food?
 
I was told at least a gallon of space for betas. Would they eat the Elodea plants/micro organisms or would I need to introduce some other thing for food?


At least a gallon yes but its still very unfair on the fish. Most experienced fishkeepers will tell you that a betta should be in a 5gallon minimum really.

No the shrimp will not touch the plants. They will munch on algae and the biofilm that develops on the plants though. Shrimp like ammano and red cherry shrimp are considered good algae grazers. Not sure on numbers but 8-12 red cherrys i reckon would be fine. Maybe 3-5 ammano shrimp


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice
 
At least a gallon yes but its still very unfair on the fish. Most experienced fishkeepers will tell you that a betta should be in a 5gallon minimum really.

No the shrimp will not touch the plants. They will munch on algae and the biofilm that develops on the plants though. Shrimp like ammano and red cherry shrimp are considered good algae grazers. Not sure on numbers but 8-12 red cherrys i reckon would be fine. Maybe 3-5 ammano shrimp


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice

what about ghost shrimp? that seems to be the only thing I've seen so far. where might I get amanos or cherries?
 
Local fish stores will usually carry common shrimp like those i mentioned. I cannot see why ghost shrimp would not work


Sent from my iPhone using Aquarium Advice
 
I know youre just in high school, but, what does "self-sustaining" really mean? Is the intent to create a system where you can just leave it entirely alone and things will carry on like in nature? If so, you may find this essentially impossible in a soda bottle- which leaves you the options of either exploring what makes this so difficult or trying to build a bigger system where it might work.

The best project of this sort I've seen was a 55 gallon tank with only a handful of very small fish and heavy planting. There were a few other aspects to it but the gist of it was that the tank didn't need to be touched- fish fed on algae, plants and microorganisms that grew in the tank. Plants grew from the nitrogenous waste produced by the fish although I'm not sure where they got the other necessary plant nutrients. No water changes, no feeding. It lasted at least a few years.
 
I know youre just in high school, but, what does "self-sustaining" really mean? Is the intent to create a system where you can just leave it entirely alone and things will carry on like in nature? If so, you may find this essentially impossible in a soda bottle- which leaves you the options of either exploring what makes this so difficult or trying to build a bigger system where it might work.

The best project of this sort I've seen was a 55 gallon tank with only a handful of very small fish and heavy planting. There were a few other aspects to it but the gist of it was that the tank didn't need to be touched- fish fed on algae, plants and microorganisms that grew in the tank. Plants grew from the nitrogenous waste produced by the fish although I'm not sure where they got the other necessary plant nutrients. No water changes, no feeding. It lasted at least a few years.

yeah, I've already reached my space limit with about 150 gallons of space taken up by reptiles. self sustaining as in it will be able to survive short term without outside influence (cap sealed.) I'm starting to think I may just build a stand and put two 2 liters together.
 
yeah, I've already reached my space limit with about 150 gallons of space taken up by reptiles. self sustaining as in it will be able to survive short term without outside influence (cap sealed.) I'm starting to think I may just build a stand and put two 2 liters together.

That could be better; that said, have you found any actual data? For example, if the cap is going to be sealed, how much oxygen will the plant produced vs how much is being consumed by whatever animal you put in? And how much CO2 and organic nitrogen is being consumed by the plant vs produced by the animal? The real trouble with these sorts of self-sustaining ecosystem things is that you tend to need more plants and space per animal than a 2 liter bottle.

Don't get me wrong- it would probably be too much work to actually find this data yourself, but it might be useful to check some scientific literature. If you can access it, I recommend searching "Web of Science" for journal articles.
 
That could be better; that said, have you found any actual data? For example, if the cap is going to be sealed, how much oxygen will the plant produced vs how much is being consumed by whatever animal you put in? And how much CO2 and organic nitrogen is being consumed by the plant vs produced by the animal? The real trouble with these sorts of self-sustaining ecosystem things is that you tend to need more plants and space per animal than a 2 liter bottle.

Don't get me wrong- it would probably be too much work to actually find this data yourself, but it might be useful to check some scientific literature. If you can access it, I recommend searching "Web of Science" for journal articles.

I've been searching for that actually. However, this information seems to be scarce and nothing I've seen so far really agrees with other information. I will look into that Web of Science thing. I feel as though it will come down to a matter of try and fail though, which which be a pain. I feel bad about using whatever animals are going to be used as "lab rats" though.
 
I've been searching for that actually. However, this information seems to be scarce and nothing I've seen so far really agrees with other information. I will look into that Web of Science thing. I feel as though it will come down to a matter of try and fail though, which which be a pain. I feel bad about using whatever animals are going to be used as "lab rats" though.

Unfortunately, far too much scientific literature is locked behind expensive paywalls and high journal prices. Frankly, I think it's disgusting how much is charged for access to information that may have been found with public tax money! And it's not the scientists- it's the journals.

In any case, if you have a university anywhere near you, go to their library and see if they can help you find some of this information. In general big research universities will have access to databases and journals with the information you need.

Oh, and you can also try Google Scholar. Anyone can access that as long as they have internet.
 
Unfortunately, far too much scientific literature is locked behind expensive paywalls and high journal prices. Frankly, I think it's disgusting how much is charged for access to information that may have been found with public tax money! And it's not the scientists- it's the journals.

In any case, if you have a university anywhere near you, go to their library and see if they can help you find some of this information. In general big research universities will have access to databases and journals with the information you need.

Oh, and you can also try Google Scholar. Anyone can access that as long as they have internet.

yeah, There's plenty of guides to conducting experiments, but no actual works to look at.

no universities around that I can readily access sadly.

never knew about that google scholar thing, busy atm but It's on my to-do list for sure.
 
Opae ula shrimp would probably be your best bet provided you can provide a brackish environment. They are frequently kept in "closed" environments and can live for an extremely long time (20+ years).


Sent from my iPad using science
 
Tough project. I'd suggest possibly adding some java moss or maybe java fern. The moss provides a lot of surface area for feeding, both are very low light tolerant.

Even those opae ula shrimp don't survive nearly their natural life span in the closed systems they've been sold in. They are remarkably hardy, but plants would be a problem. Not many plants that are salt tolerant are available. Those that are thought to be salt tolerant need varying lengths of time to be gradually acclimated to brackish water. FW snails wouldn't survive it either. You'd be ok with a Nerite snail, as they originate from brackish areas, but since they've all been adapted to FW, a period of gradual acclimation to brackish water would likely be necessary.

The problem with closed systems, as you know, is the balance within. But living animals produce waste, which produces ammonia & nitrite. Plants can utilize these but they have to use enough of it to prevent the levels from becoming toxic. Even very low levels of ammonia can be toxic.

You have to have enough oxygen to support living animals and in a closed system, it has to come from live plants. You'd need the plant growth to be balanced enough with the animal's output so that they would utilize enough of the waste produced to keep the water from going toxic. There is also the problem that water that is still tends to become stagnant, because air exchange stops happening. It only occurs at the surface, and for the exchange to continue you need constant circulation of the water. Live plants do help with this but in a sealed, small volume of water, it might go stagnant very quickly.

Btw, snails produce quite a lot of waste, more than you would think for their size, though they also eat dead plant matter. So having more than one small one probably wouldn't work too well. Ramshorn snails are hermaphrodites that will lay viable eggs without a mate, and then you'll have a lot of baby snails added to the system. Nerite snails lay eggs too, but they won't hatch unless they have pretty much full marine conditions.

I don't think there are any fish small enough to work for this, but you might get away with a single male Endler. Endler's livebearer. They are in the guppy family, but only half the size or less than modern guppies, and no big fancy tails. There are a few other tiny species, such as the Strawberry rasbora, but they are a schooling species so they don't do well alone. But I can't say for sure that any small fish would survive long without some feeding. Most of them are thought to be micropredators, rather than herbivores.

But cherry shrimp might work for some period of time. They can subsist on bioflim, algae and micro organisms. Ghost shrimp are more than twice the size of Cherry shrimp, but you could still have a few, maybe 3 or so. If possible, I'd include a small piece of well aged driftwood, as it will support more micro organisms shrimp can eat. A bit of well aged, debarked hardwood will do.

Be sure you don't leave it in too bright or too warm a location, Shrimp can't handle a lot of heat. They like it cooler, say, 72 - 74 F, and they can take it quite a bit cooler than that. Provide a regular period of light and darkness so the plants will have a normal metabolism and you don't end up having it overwhelmed with algae growth. You need enough light to support the plants, but too much can overheat so small a volume of water, or encourage the growth of algaes which can smother everything else in there.

One of the problems fish keepers have with using really small tanks is the simple fact that it's so easy for the water parameters to change for the worse in a small volume of water. Filtration helps greatly but you still have to be careful and you aren't going to have filtration in a bottle.

Best of luck.
 
You may already be aware but it takes time for biofilm to develop ... If you have a good scenario to try, the water and plants need to sit awhile before introducing species that need to survive off biofilm. Building it in a day isn't going to bring in diverse bacteria and such that are very necessary to the ecosystem. Even aquariums die when they aren't populated gradually.

Good luck! Such an ambitious endeavor!


Sent from my iPhone with three hands tied behind my back.
 
I recently did a small experiment of my own that's distantly related to what you're proposing to try. Can't hurt to tell you what I did, might be of some small use to you.

I have 3 Betta fish, each in a 2.5 G tank. I used to keep them bare, with nothing in the tank other than the fish. Typically I'd perform a partial water change, [ PWC ] biweekly, during which I siphoned all fish waste from the bottom. Uneaten food would be removed daily.

But I added a fair number of plants, because I didn't care for the bare tanks. After they'd been growing for awhile, I became curious about what effect, if any, the presence of the plants might be having on the water parameters. To find out, I stopped doing water changes about ten days ago. Instead, I only replaced [ topped up] evaporated water.

Each 2.5 G tank has one full grown Betta. Each has 2-3 stems of Hygro difformis, kept from floating by small weights; a small mass of loose Java moss; 2-3 mesh grown patches of fissidens moss; 2-3 quite small anubias plants, with 2-3 rooting leaf cuttings of the difformis floating on the top. Bottoms are bare glass, but have a large Indian Almond leaf plus a couple of cured brown oak leaves resting on the bottom, to add tannins and humic acids to the water. There's a fan that blows on the surface of the water if needed to control temperatures.
.
There is no filtration of any kind; no powered circulation of the water. Water only moves if the fish do & perhaps with plant respiration, and perhaps some if the cooling fan is running. Lighting is provided by round 8" reflectors [ utility lamp], with spiral 6500 K bulbs in them, 9W. The reflectors sit on the tank rims. One pair of tanks are side by side and share a lamp. The other has its own lamp.

I tested the water every couple of days, as I had no wish to risk the health of the fish. I never had any detectable ammonia. Ammonia is the most common by product of fish waste, from fish urine mainly, but it can also come from decaying food & other organics.

In tanks with filtration that are cycled, nitrifying bacteria in the filters convert this ammonia to nitrite, then other types of nitrifying bacteria convert that to nitrate. Nitrate is controlled in part by plant uptake and in part by PWCs.

Today was my tenth day in, and test results were; Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0 and Nitrate <10 ppm. That was quite surprising, as I had expected to see at least some ammonia. The only conclusion I can make so far is that the plants are directly consuming the ammonia output of the fish. I have wondered if the nitrates indicate that at least some nitrifying bacteria are at work too, but since I do add minute amounts of fertilizer for the plants, that may be the source of nitrate.

I'm continuing to monitor to see how long the water quality remains acceptable. The only thing I add to these tanks is top up water, food for the fish, a minute amount of liquid fertilizer twice a week, and Excel, a carbon source for the plants. I add the last two because I want the plants to grow as well as possible. So each tank is dosed with 3 drops of API's carbon source daily, and just 1 drop of Flourish liquid fertilizer, 2-3 x week. Timers control the light cycle, which is 12 on/12 off. Despite the long photoperiod, there's been no algae growth, and they've been lighted this way all summer.

Of course, these tanks are not closed systems such as you're proposing. They also have a much larger water volume & substantially greater surface area where gas exchange can happen. So no stagnation has occurred, fish are happy and healthy. I feed them live food 3 or 4 days weekly, other days it's frozen food, and I skip feeding one or two days weekly. Feeding once daily only. Anything fed live that is missed will be eaten later on, and meantime survive and have no effect on the water quality.

I plan to carry on with my little experiment to see how long the water remains in acceptable condition without water changes. I hoped the results might be somewhat helpful to you. They certainly have made it clear to me that with this plant load, I don't have to do nearly as frequent PWCs as I used to do.
 
Back
Top Bottom