How quickly do chemicals like Prime work?

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I think the better question is why risk your bb filter on a gallon of water to top off? Or just add a couple mls of prime and call it good. Just piece of mind. Personally I have spent to much time and too much money to risk my angels and GBR to straight tap in any amount.
 
Never said you were giving out misinformation if you read my post. "this type of information can be very confusing to those new to the hobby and can give them the false impression that they don't need to use a dechlorinator for smaller amounts of water changes or top offs. Unless a person knows exactly what is in their tap water I would not recommend not using a declor product."

You simply stated your information and I countered why I don't agree with it. Nothing to get up in arms about as the more information a person is given the better equipped they are to make an educated decision about what they do. This is what the forum is here for.

I'm sorry I don't believe I "got up in arms" over anything? I thought my responses were very direct and level headed and im sorry you felt differently.

Maybe I should state more clearly.

If your goal is simply to remove chlorine, it can be offgassed by letting sit in a wide topped container for 24 hours. This is most likely what the OP's boss is comfortable with because this is the old fashioned way of removing chlorine only.

This is not sufficient to offgas chloramines or heavy metals so a conditioner that specifically removes those things would be necessary. There are conditioners that only remove chlorine and dont do much for chloramines or heavy metals. In fact some can interact with chloramines in a way that releases ammonia into a tank so you really need to pay attention to what your water conditioner is capable of.

A water change or top off of about 10 percent or less can be done without using a dechlorinator because the chlorine would offgas in a matter of minutes through the water column and filter and would not harm the biological filter. However if cholramines or heavy metals are present then you still may need to use a conditioner.

You can find out exactly whats in your local tap water by contacting your water company or local government.

If you have a well then you would have to get an analysis done but when we had a well we also had a filter for heavy metals.

I hope that clears up the information i was trying to give a little better.

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I think the better question is why risk your bb filter on a gallon of water to top off? Or just add a couple mls of prime and call it good. Just piece of mind. Personally I have spent to much time and too much money to risk my angels and GBR to straight tap in any amount.
And the winner is..... Seriously guys/girls, is it worth the risk? Barring shipping rates to the North Pole, water conditioner is not all that outrageously priced..
 
And the winner is..... Seriously guys/girls, is it worth the risk? Barring shipping rates to the North Pole, water conditioner is not all that outrageously priced..

Right, but the point of the thread was the OP wanted to know why his boss made him have the water sit for 24 hours despite using prime.

Also many conditioners only contain sodium thiosulfate and maybe some aloe. Sodium thiosulfate will remove chlorine but when it interacts with chloramines it releases ammonia. With an established biofilter this may not be a problem but agian the OP's boss may feel more comfortable letting it sit for 24 hours so any ammonia that may released from cholramines dissapates.


Prime however claims to contain more complex hydrosulfite saltes that not only remove chlorine and chloramines but also binds ammonia and heavy metals as well as detoxifies nitrite and nitrates for 48 hours. Pretty cool if you ask me. And it keeps the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates bound in a form that can still be utilized by plants and the bio filter. So it is completely unnecessary to let the water sit for any amount of time when using prime. It works instantly.

When I do water changes I dose prime for the entire tank volume. If I do small top offs I do not use a water conditioner but I know whats in my tapwater.

So in reference to the OP's original question that is why I gave the information the way I did. To give you the reason why his boss wanted the water to sit for 24 hours despite using prime. I was not suggesting anyone not to use a conditioner just stating why in certain situations it is not necessary.


Here is a reference from seachems site:



Prime

Product Description

Prime® is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime® is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime® will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.

Sizes: 50 mL, 100 mL, 250 mL, 500 mL, 2 L, 4 L, 20 L

Why It's Different

Nearly all companies manufacture a product that removes chlorine. None of those, however, can compare in quality, concentration, or effectiveness to Seachem’s flagship product: Prime®.*Prime® is the second most concentrated dechlorinator on the market after our own aquavitro*alpha™. A single 100 mL bottle will treat 1000 US gallons of tap water.*Prime® will remove both chlorine and chloramines from municipal water supplies.

Prime® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together. All dechlorinators operate through a chemical process known as reduction. In this process, toxic dissolved chlorine gas (Cl2) is converted into non-toxic chloride ions (Cl-). The reduction process also breaks the bonds between chlorine and nitrogen atoms in the chloramine molecule (NH2Cl), freeing the chlorine atoms and replacing them with hydrogen (H) to create ammonia (NH3).

Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process.

Be very careful when purchasing water conditioners. If your municipality includes chloramines in the water supplies, a standard sodium thiosulfate dechlorinator is not enough. Prime® promotes the natural production and restoration of the slime coat rather than relying on artificial or non-native slime compounds. A further bonus for the reef hobbyist—Prime® will not overactivate protein skimmers.




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I know some that let the water sit in a tank even after adding Prime, hey whatever works is what I say.
I haven't used Prime yet but it's been recommended so I'll try it next time, I've been using an API product and seems to work well.
My question has always been, is there a way to check for chloramimes?
 
I know some that let the water sit in a tank even after adding Prime, hey whatever works is what I say.
I haven't used Prime yet but it's been recommended so I'll try it next time, I've been using an API product and seems to work well.
My question has always been, is there a way to check for chloramimes?

You can call your local municipal water company and get an analysis.

Alternatively you can get a water conditioner that only contains sodium thiosulfate. I think stress coat is one (it contains sodium thiosulfate and aloe) . Treat some tapwater with it and then test for ammonia. If chloramines are present then the sodium thiosulfate will release ammonia.

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You can call your local municipal water company and get an analysis.

Alternatively you can get a water conditioner that only contains sodium thiosulfate. I think stress coat is one (it contains sodium thiosulfate and aloe) . Treat some tapwater with it and then test for ammonia. If chloramines are present then the sodium thiosulfate will release ammonia.

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+1. Good idea.

However, why would you want to use anything but Prime? It's very concentrated, and you save money using it.
 
+1. Good idea.

However, why would you want to use anything but Prime? It's very concentrated, and you save money using it.

Im with you, I only use prime. But they asked how they could detect chloramines.

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There is no test kit that I am aware of for Chloramines but I believe API used to make one for chlorine and chloramine. A municipal water report would be the way to find out if you have chloramine in your water. The old school way of thinking was if you had ammonia in your tap water then you had chloramines since chloramines are chlorine and ammonia.
 
The old school way of thinking was if you had ammonia in your tap water then you had chloramines since chloramines are chlorine and ammonia.
This doesnt work as the ammonia test wont detect the chloramine itself when it is still bound. Sodium thiosulfate however will remove the chlorine and leave ammonia present. So you would have to treat the tapwater with a dechlorinator containing only sodium thiosulfate and then test for ammonia.

Although some people do have ammonia in their tapwater. We had nitrates at 20ppm in our tap water at one place I lived. Thats what got me started with live plants!


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Wow, this thread has certainly meandered a bit.

Regarding the original question, I don't know how fast thiosulfates work to detoxify chlorine/chloramine products, but what I think the important thing to know is that dechlorinating products detoxify chlorine faster than chlorine can be effectively toxic (to fish or to bacteria), so it really doesn't matter.


Regarding chlorine vs chloramines: generally assume chloramines. Chlorine is pretty gnarly stuff (killed a lot of folk in WWI), so most municipalities have already switched to chlorine.


To address the rest of the stuff, I think a distinction should be made between what is true and what actually matters. For instance, it is true that most products don't also detoxify ammonia after converting chloramines to ammonia, but the actual level of ammonia produced like this is usually almost trivial in my opinion. The levels of chloramines in drinking water is usually around 2 ppm or so, which converts into an ammonia concentration of ~.7 ppm. If you're doing a large WC of 50%, you'll be introducing .35 ppm of ammonia into your tank. This is, in my experience, a trivial amount for a tank with an established biofilter and a trivial addition to a tank without one (considering you probably just removed several times what you introduced).


Same thing with top offs. If you're adding 10% water, then it's true that you're introducing chloramines, but at a fraction of the levels found in drinking water (ie, levels needed to disinfect). I would question their ability to harm much of anything at those levels, although if I had something more sensitive in the tank like high grade CRS I would probably be a good bit more paranoid. So yea, you're probably ok with doing that, but it's not what I call 'good form'. I've got a thiosulfate dechlorinator by my sink that I use to dechlor each pitcher when I do drop off. It cost me $4 at Walmart and it'll last for a very long time at the rate of a few drops per week, and adds no time to the change (I add it when filling the pitcher for maximum mixing).



As a closing note, I've always found Seachem's marketing to be a bit.... overstated. They like to market their stuff as miracles in a bottle, but they also make unsupported claims or rely on anecdote rather than data/chemistry. For a good illustration of this, see Seachem Excel vs bulk glut from amazon (and also check out the price difference...),
 
This doesnt work as the ammonia test wont detect the chloramine itself when it is still bound. Sodium thiosulfate however will remove the chlorine and leave ammonia present. So you would have to treat the tapwater with a dechlorinator containing only sodium thiosulfate and then test for ammonia.

Although some people do have ammonia in their tapwater. We had nitrates at 20ppm in our tap water at one place I lived. Thats what got me started with live plants!


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As I said this was the old school way... lol! I'm one of the older generation that learned about tanks via my father in the 50's and 60's.
 
Wow, this thread has certainly meandered a bit.

Regarding the original question, I don't know how fast thiosulfates work to detoxify chlorine/chloramine products, but what I think the important thing to know is that dechlorinating products detoxify chlorine faster than chlorine can be effectively toxic (to fish or to bacteria), so it really doesn't matter.


Regarding chlorine vs chloramines: generally assume chloramines. Chlorine is pretty gnarly stuff (killed a lot of folk in WWI), so most municipalities have already switched to chlorine.


To address the rest of the stuff, I think a distinction should be made between what is true and what actually matters. For instance, it is true that most products don't also detoxify ammonia after converting chloramines to ammonia, but the actual level of ammonia produced like this is usually almost trivial in my opinion. The levels of chloramines in drinking water is usually around 2 ppm or so, which converts into an ammonia concentration of ~.7 ppm. If you're doing a large WC of 50%, you'll be introducing .35 ppm of ammonia into your tank. This is, in my experience, a trivial amount for a tank with an established biofilter and a trivial addition to a tank without one (considering you probably just removed several times what you introduced).


Same thing with top offs. If you're adding 10% water, then it's true that you're introducing chloramines, but at a fraction of the levels found in drinking water (ie, levels needed to disinfect). I would question their ability to harm much of anything at those levels, although if I had something more sensitive in the tank like high grade CRS I would probably be a good bit more paranoid. So yea, you're probably ok with doing that, but it's not what I call 'good form'. I've got a thiosulfate dechlorinator by my sink that I use to dechlor each pitcher when I do drop off. It cost me $4 at Walmart and it'll last for a very long time at the rate of a few drops per week, and adds no time to the change (I add it when filling the pitcher for maximum mixing).

Thats what I was trying to say for the most part :)




As a closing note, I've always found Seachem's marketing to be a bit.... overstated. They like to market their stuff as miracles in a bottle, but they also make unsupported claims or rely on anecdote rather than data/chemistry. For a good illustration of this, see Seachem Excel vs bulk glut from amazon (and also check out the price difference...),
I agree seachem has some over the top marketing strategies and I dont like that they wont divulge exactly whats in prime. But their products have worked well for me over the years. Im going to check out the bulk glut though, how do you know how much to dose?


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Talked to him. Now in agreement that it is instant :). He's just old school.... Been doing fish tanks more than double the years I've been alive so he's just always done it the 24 hour way
 
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