I feel so bad for my fish right now

[foster53]

The water looks milky because the bacteria are in the water column, thus causing the cloudy water. Once they start settling into your filter bio material, and into your gravel, and on the rest of the surfaces that the water comes in contact with, then the water will clear. Be patient and things will clear up in a few weeks. The Stability won't do any good in this case because you are not dealing with particulate in the water column. Keep using the Amquel or Prime to neutralize the ammonia. As far as how much water to change each day is subjective. Everyone has their own opinion. Personally I would change enough to keep ammonia levels at.50 or below. One thing to consider is while your tank is going through a bacterial bloom the bacteria are in the water column, so when you do W/C's you are removing bacteria also. The main thing at this point is to monitor your ammonia and nitrite very closely, and take appropriate action.

 

[mudraker]

when you do W/C's you are removing bacteria also

Respectfully, the bacteria that clouds the water is not the beneficial bacteria that eats ammonia or nitrite. It isn't harmful, but it isn't beneficial either.

Nor is the amount of ammonia that is considered safe subjective. Ammonia is poisonous to fish-period. The more poison in the water column, the more damage and/or death to the fish.

Not opinion, fact.

 

[jetajockey]

Nor is the amount of ammonia that is considered safe subjective. Ammonia is poisonous to fish-period. The more poison in the water column, the more damage and/or death to the fish.

Not opinion, fact.

Sorry to disagree with this. There is a level of ammonia considered in the safe range. This has been determined by multiple papers/studies on ammonia toxicity in fish.

I agree that the best thing to do is to keep the water as low as possible in nitrogenous waste levels, but at the same time, reading something like this makes people think that any amount of ammonia in their water is poisoning their fish, and it simply is not.

A high enough concentration of anything could be considered a poison, it's all about levels.

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Bottle bacteria works for one or two month but it let the time to nitrosomonas and nitrobacter to develop! So in emergency case it works well!

So its not bad but the best way stay 50% PWC every day until cycled or even better if you can have an old media filter from establish tank!

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Cycle stop progressing if ammo or nitrite go over 4ppm. So 6 is bugging your cycle, PWC is the key because any old filter media will die in 6ppm of ammo and bottle bacteria too!

 

[foster53]

The toxicity of ammonia to fish is PH dependent. The higher the Ph the the more toxic smaller amounts of ammonia become. At very low PH ( I can't remember the exact value) ammonia actually becomes ammonium which is not toxic at any concentration. I agree fully that ammonia levels should be kept as low as possible when cycling a tank with fish, but at levels beween .50 and 1 fish will be fine at lower Ph neutral or below.

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

The toxicity of ammonia to fish is PH dependent. The higher the Ph the the more toxic smaller amounts of ammonia become. At very low PH ( I can't remember the exact value) ammonia actually becomes ammonium which is not toxic at any concentration. I agree fully that ammonia levels should be kept as low as possible when cycling a tank with fish, but at levels beween .50 and 1 fish will be fine at lower Ph neutral or below.

Exactly, limit is 7.3, at 7.4 it starts transferring in NH3, the toxic form!

 

[jetajockey]

Exactly, limit is 7.3, at 7.4 it starts transferring in NH3, the toxic form!

Not quite, nh3 is present on a sliding scale down into the six's.

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Not quite, nh3 is present on a sliding scale down into the six's.

hi,
I took the answer in animalia encyclopedia for freshwaterfish and in my study... The quantity present under 7.0( sorry for that mistake its not 7.3) is the same negligable quantity of NH4+ present at PH 9.3 and up. But no fight if you dont believe me then your right.

Here a Mars fish keeper article by Mark Pagini, micro biologist.

http://mars.reefkeepers.net/Articles/CycleAzote/CycleAzote.html

Maybe you can find it in english there:

http://mars.reefkeepers.net

So over 9.2 its dominance of NH3 and under 7.0 the nh3 is consider at 0 and full of NH4. (NH4 is a non-toxic form)

But you know, anyone can believe in what they want!

So have a nive day all!

 

[jetajockey]

There are many more resources than that one, and it's not english so I can't even begin to understand what it says.

Believe me, I understand the relationship between pH, temperature, and nh3/nh4.

There is still a certain quantity of NH3 in the system at ph below 7.3, if there weren't, then people would not lose fish to ammonia poisoning if they maintained a tank below 7.3ph.

The shift from nh4 to nh3 does not start at 7.4 it's somewhere in the low 6's or even lower.

Here are some charts and studies that explain it better than I can.
Ammonia Toxicity
FA16/FA031: Ammonia in Aquatic Systems
Ammonia Toxicity to Freshwater Fish

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Under 7.4 its less than 0.8%...
and non toxic ammo doesnt let you free of nitrite... Thats why fish die in cycling at low pH even with no nh3.

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

And when we say non toxic we should ear LESS toxic, so nH4 at 4 ppm is toxic too, as at high Ph like 8, ammo is toxic at 0.5 ppm and dangerous at 2ppm.

Anyway, good night!

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Another table said 0.062 ppm of toxic ammo at pH 7 with a total ammo of 8ppm...its negligable as its 0.00775%...

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

That means that we say the same thing!! The trace are nothing!!

 

[MonsterfishGuy]

Look at the jump between 7.3 and 7.4 and look under 7.0 how low it is!

 

[jetajockey]

Under 7.4 its less than 0.8%...
and non toxic ammo doesnt let you free of nitrite... Thats why fish die in cycling at low pH even with no nh3.

I said die of ammonia poisoning not nitrite poisoning.

Remember that temperature is another critical factor in NH3/NH4 levels.



If you do the math, or read the charts that have different PPM readings, you'll see that the higher PPM of ammonia can still make for toxic conditions (granted, it takes a LOT of ammonia) at ph below 7.3.


Here's an example.

8mg/l (ppm) ammonia at 78 degrees 6.8 pH is .03 NH3.

3mg/l (ppm) ammonia at 78 degrees 7.3 pH is .028 NH3.

Different species of fish have different tolerance to NH3 exposure but I believe that .03 is a decent baseline since it has been shown to affect certain tested species. IFAS uses .05 as a baseline, but I have been opting for the lower .03 since less is better when it comes to fish health.

I agree with you that ammonia toxicity reduces greatly as the pH falls below neutral, but it's still there and should be recognized as a potential issue.

I think we actually agree on the same basic points, I just believe (and have shown) that ammonia still has a level of toxicity in ph below 7.3.