ICH, Does ingestion of...

[ChileRelleno]

I'm curious as to what people think about the severity and/or tenancity of a ICH infestation being influenced by the ingestion of the protozoa?
In particular I'm talking about a infested fish being eaten by another fish, e.g. a cichlid eating a infected feeder.

I've encountered a differing personal opinion, the opinion states that in their experience a fish who ingested the ICH protozoa takes significantly longer to treat/cure.
I claim this to be totally bogus info, particularly when related on-line in a fish forum to others seeking advice on treating their fish.
ICH is one of the most well studied/documented parasites we deal with and there is nothing I've ever experienced nor read even hinting at the possibility of ingestion having a influence on severity/tenacity.
Opinions such as this when related in open forum leads to the continuation/dissemination of false facts/mis-information which may be taken by the ignorant as factual information and spread even further.

Example: The fish-myth that "Ich is always present in the aquarium."

Anyways...
What do you think? Fact or fantasy

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Actually, from what I've heard and read, I do believe that you cannot completely get rid of ick completely. It's going to always be somewhere in the tank, ready to strike. And the main reason it strikes is when the fish are stressed and the immune system of the fish has decreased. If you have a healthy fish tank, then the ick can still be there, but will never show because the fish are healthy and you are providing the best care for the fish.

That being said, I do believe that ick is always present.

 

[QTOFFER]

AFAIK, ich is an ECTO-parasite, not an internal one. Eating ich-infected fish shouldn't give ich to the predator, but it is likely that parasites already fell off and infested the gravel by the time the infected prey was eaten. The predator would certainly be at risk.

As far as ich being in the aquarium all the time: I think it very possible that a subclinical, asymptomatic ich infestation may exist in certain fish their entire lives until it is noticed and treated. It would explain the mysterious ich outbreaks that sometimes occur months after any new additions are made to an aquarium. The infection only becomes noticeable when the fish become stressed.

 

[ChileRelleno]

AFAIK, ich is an ECTO-parasite, not an internal one. Eating ich-infected fish shouldn't give ich to the predator, but it is likely that parasites already fell off and infested the gravel by the time the infected prey was eaten. The predator would certainly be at risk.

As far as ich being in the aquarium all the time: I think it very possible that a subclinical, asymptomatic ich infestation may exist in certain fish their entire lives until it is noticed and treated. It would explain the mysterious ich outbreaks that sometimes occur months after any new additions are made to an aquarium. The infection only becomes noticeable when the fish become stressed.

Yes, and after it is properly treated/eradicated, in the aquarium as whole, it is no longer "in/on" the aquarium or fish.
So, "ICH is 'NOT' always present in a aquarium."
Once eradicated it must be re-introduced from either, lack of proper quarantine with preventative treatment (heat/salt), the lack of quarantine/disinfecting of plants, substrate, decor, filter media and contaminated water and finally by cross contamination due to the use of items,e.g. nets/pythons, in multiple tanks.

 

[Guest]

Ok then, I saw this happen a few years ago. Someone I know had a perfectly healthy tank and fish. They left it in the care of a neighbor when they left for a few days. The neighbor wayyy over fed the fish and they were infected with ich. There were no new fish added or anything else. So where did the ich come from?

 

[ChileRelleno]

Ich has been known to reside latently (not in dormancy) in fish that have developed a resistance.
Generally it will reside in the gills... The gills are a favored spot for ICH in all infestations.
It will continue to go thru its lifecycle unoticed for a indefinite period, then when some thing stresses the fish lowering its immune system the infection can become full blown, move onto the body and become visible to the keeper.
Hence the supposed ICH from nowhere in a supposedly healthy disease free tank.
Once the infestation is discovered and treated/eradicated it is gone... Permanently.
This is why I practice and recommend preventative treatment for ICH and other various nasties in quarantine.

 

[Devilishturtles]

I agree with what has been said, namely QTOFFER. I don't think eating the parasite can give you ich, since ich is an external parasite. I do believe that ich is always present, UNLESS you've already treated for it. Therefore, it's possible that ich is everpresent in a tank that has never had an ich outbreak.

 

[Guest]

So if I have had the same fish for a year and never had ich or treated for it, then anything that stresses my fish could cause an outbreak? Then I would think it appeared from nowhere when it has actualy been living in the gills of the fish un-noticed. How can you tell if the gills have ich?

 

[Jchillin]

More than likely, you wouldn't be able to tell. It's similar to humans who carry a disease but it does not affect them. QTOFFER mentions sub-clinical which tells me you would have to have a healthy subject consent to a biopsy to know for sure.

 

[ChileRelleno]

That is correct.
Other than a outbreak or taking a scraping and having it examined there is not a easy/reliable way to detect such a low level infestation.
There is no guarantee that your fish harbor a latent infestation.
If you'd like, you may simply treat them as if ICH was present, i.e. treat with heat/salt.

This is exactly what I hoped to accomplish, healthy discussion/debate aimed at the facts of ICH. I've posted this same thread in four of my most frequented forums, I will after a week or so combine poll results and general remarks/consensus and post results.
I'm very happy so far.

 

[QTOFFER]

Ich has been known to reside latently (not in dormancy) in fish that have developed a resistance.
Generally it will reside in the gills... The gills are a favored spot for ICH in all infestations.
It will continue to go thru its lifecycle unoticed for a indefinite period, then when some thing stresses the fish lowering its immune system the infection can become full blown, move onto the body and become visible to the keeper.
Hence the supposed ICH from nowhere in a supposedly healthy disease free tank.
Once the infestation is discovered and treated/eradicated it is gone... Permanently.

I believe that nearly all lfs tanks contain ich, whether you see sick fish or not. This is probably due to the high turnover of fish and the high probability that they never properly eradicate the problem. Most lfs have no idea that heat with or without salt kills ich.
I've heard of ich strains that are resistant to heat and salt treatment. Hope I never run across them.

This is why I practice and recommend preventative treatment for ICH and other various nasties in quarantine.

Yup, I do the same thing - new arrivals are kept in my QT tank for three weeks at 86oF. I assume that all fish I buy from the lfs have latent ich infestations.