Impatient with startup high ammonia no sign of a cycle

[neonpedro]

I stay in Central Scotland so the water here is quite good the ph is 6.4 and at the moment I'm battling to get the ammonia below 1 or 2ppm with 50% changes daily. I test every other day for ammonia with a full test of nitrate nitrite and ammonia once a week. I knew it was borderline overstocking when I put the wee fellas in there but thought as they were mostly neons that the ammonia and waste produced would be minimal. I also got the corys and algae eaters to try and combat the problem but have actually added to it. The one plus side is that the plants are thriving! They have doubled in size and height since I got them. Thanks for the input folks.

 

[Proteus55]

I went through this: get a big bottle of Safestart, the 16 oz. worked like a charm in about a week.

 

[Sk3lly]

I stay in Central Scotland so the water here is quite good the ph is 6.4 and at the moment I'm battling to get the ammonia below 1 or 2ppm with 50% changes daily. I test every other day for ammonia with a full test of nitrate nitrite and ammonia once a week. I knew it was borderline overstocking when I put the wee fellas in there but thought as they were mostly neons that the ammonia and waste produced would be minimal. I also got the corys and algae eaters to try and combat the problem but have actually added to it. The one plus side is that the plants are thriving! They have doubled in size and height since I got them. Thanks for the input folks.

I wouldn't call it borderline. You are heavily overstocked in my opinion. Your going to struggle permanently. Have you tested your tap water for ammonia?? This is a fairly common problem

 

[squirrilah fish]

I went through this: get a big bottle of Safestart, the 16 oz. worked like a charm in about a week.

I've tried a few of these products including, and like safe start. But I recommend Seachems Stability above them all.

 

[neonpedro]

There's no issue with the tap water. It's not got any traces of ammonia or nitrates/ites. Like I said Scottish water is good quality. I don't mind having to do a little more work to keep the water in check. The look I wanted was a shoal of neons in similar environment to there wild habitat. The plant pot is temporary for a hiding place until I get time to pick up some bog wood. I don't think it does the neons justice just having 10 or 12. I have 19. I might lose either the plec or the algae eaters to try to alleviate the stock issue and as per previous post I've already lost bubba Gump one of my amato shrimp. I'm working to try to sort it. Albeit a bit of a mixed up way.

 

[neonpedro]

Before and after another 50% wc and added some ammonia remover I would say as of now it's as low as it's been. Is it worth adding stress zyme to help with bacteria or should I just keep changing the water?

 

[squirrilah fish]

Stress zyme can help. Just don't overdose it.

 

[Sk3lly]

There's no issue with the tap water. It's not got any traces of ammonia or nitrates/ites. Like I said Scottish water is good quality. I don't mind having to do a little more work to keep the water in check. The look I wanted was a shoal of neons in similar environment to there wild habitat. The plant pot is temporary for a hiding place until I get time to pick up some bog wood. I don't think it does the neons justice just having 10 or 12. I have 19. I might lose either the plec or the algae eaters to try to alleviate the stock issue and as per previous post I've already lost bubba Gump one of my amato shrimp. I'm working to try to sort it. Albeit a bit of a mixed up way.

I fully understand the look your after. I love the look of neons in full effect. Removing the fish you mentioned will defo help. Especially the plec. Be sure to monitor fairly frequently and do 50% changes as necessary.

Im in southern england and dont have those 'highland springs' like you have lol. We have liquid limescale here!!!

Also i dont think stress zyme will do much for you as above poster mentioned. More of a money making gimmick in my opinion

 

[neonpedro]

Still changing water daily but was wondering what the next likely test results should be if it starts to cycle. I'm not getting any readings on nitrates or nitrites yet and the ammonia would keep rocketing if I wasn't doing the changes. Would I get a sudden spike in nitrates if it begun to cycle or would it be gradual?

 

[Mebbid]

Not even taking into account the ammonia production from the large numbers of fish line that you are looking at disease outbreaks as well. The neons look nice but you need to drop the stocking down or else nothing good will come of it. I would say 10 neons at the most as well as getting rod of the algae eaters and pleco.

Your low ph is also slowing down the cycle. You will need to raise it up a few points.

 

[neonpedro]

I'm shocked that in a 46 litre tank having 19 neons is classed as a worrying overstock. If I'd have known that at the time when I had my 'Neon-kingdom' vision I would have just got they plastic fish that move around by themselves.
I actually used to have a 500l jewel tank with fish in it that survived for years and years and I didn't follow any procedures or even give it any attention at all other than water changes when it was visibly clear that there was a need for it. I never even owned a test kit or had the need to test. Now I want a small tank with pretty neons and I can't achieve my vision without hiring someone to maintain the scientific aspect of moving colours in water!

 

[Mebbid]

a 500L tank has a lot more going on in it and a much much much slower response time than a 40L tank will have. Generally, the larger the tank, the easier it is to care for.

 

[Sk3lly]

I'm shocked that in a 46 litre tank having 19 neons is classed as a worrying overstock. If I'd have known that at the time when I had my 'Neon-kingdom' vision I would have just got they plastic fish that move around by themselves.
I actually used to have a 500l jewel tank with fish in it that survived for years and years and I didn't follow any procedures or even give it any attention at all other than water changes when it was visibly clear that there was a need for it. I never even owned a test kit or had the need to test. Now I want a small tank with pretty neons and I can't achieve my vision without hiring someone to maintain the scientific aspect of moving colours in water!

Nobody is stopping you with your neon kingdom. Can put 50 in if you like. Its your tank after all.

You asked for advice, and we gave you advice that we think will help. Nobody gets paid to give advice on here remember. We all just want people to enjoy their fish and not get frustrated with fish deaths and diseases often caused by overstocking

 

[neonpedro]

I'm frustrated with myself the advice you have given me is proving invaluable don't take my comment the wrong way I just made some poor assumptions that I've invested in and it's going to be a battle to keep up neon utopia.

 

[squirrilah fish]

I have been one who has ignored people advice on here. And overstocked a tank. Here's what I found to help. How I made it work.

First: you need to be able to keep Ammonia and Nitrites down. Having multiple filters can help with this.

In my 10gallon I had a 10g filter, a 20g filter, and a UV filter, never had problems keeping ammonia and nitrites down, or keeping the water clear.

The true problem comes with Nitrates. Live plants, an algae scrubber, or a zeolite media like Purigen can help with this, but you still may need to do weekly 50% water changes.

There is a set standard of what "is best" but you can do WHATEVER you want, it's YOUR tank, and don't let ANYONE make you feel bad about it.

(Obviously there are some bonehead things people do, but if you care, and you try, your good by me)

I am sure there is a way to make your neon topia work, just as you imagined it.

 

[Sk3lly]

I have been one who has ignored people advice on here. And overstocked a tank. Here's what I found to help. How I made it work.

First: you need to be able to keep Ammonia and Nitrites down. Having multiple filters can help with this.

In my 10gallon I had a 10g filter, a 20g filter, and a UV filter, never had problems keeping ammonia and nitrites down, or keeping the water clear.

The true problem comes with Nitrates. Live plants, an algae scrubber, or a zeolite media like Purigen can help with this, but you still may need to do weekly 50% water changes.

There is a set standard of what "is best" but you can do WHATEVER you want, it's YOUR tank, and don't let ANYONE make you feel bad about it.

(Obviously there are some bonehead things people do, but if you care, and you try, your good by me)

I am sure there is a way to make your neon topia work, just as you imagined it.

My biggest problem with a large overstock like that isn't the here and now but the future.

In my opinion 50% water change weekly should be done anyway (not necessary)

So you may be keeping on top of the large overstock with large water changes but what if you decide to skip a week? Well nitrates get high. What if you go away on holiday???

I think overstocking offers no safty net

 

[squirrilah fish]

Still changing water daily but was wondering what the next likely test results should be if it starts to cycle. I'm not getting any readings on nitrates or nitrites yet and the ammonia would keep rocketing if I wasn't doing the changes. Would I get a sudden spike in nitrates if it begun to cycle or would it be gradual?

Here is what I would expect you to expect:

First Ammonia spikes, which you are dealing with. Prime, or another ammonia remover will help with this, but the best thing to do is do water changes to keep it as close to zero as possible. Too much ammonia overwhelms the beneficial bacteria (BB) and you will lose it all. These ammonia spikes can last anywhere from 1-3 weeks. After that readings could be fine for a couple of days, as the BB is becoming accustom to dealing with Ammonia.

If you don't get to this stage, you need more surface area, (a larger filter, another filter) your substrate should be roughly 1 pound per gallon as well. Too much or too little can be a problem.

After there is enough BB to take care of Ammonia then you WILL get Nitrite spikes, which in my opinion are even deadlier than Ammonia. Especially to neons. Prime, and stability will help, but you MUST do water changes to keep it as close to zero as possible. Like Ammonia, too much Nitrites can overwhelm the BB and you have to start over. You may also see Nitrate readings at this time, but that does NOT mean your done cycling

When I did my new 30g I had to do 2 sometimes 3 50% water changes a day for a week to keep the nitrites down.

This process can also take 1-3 weeks.

When your tank is showing 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 0-40 nitrates, for a week or more, you are done cycling. (Generally)

This is an example of how to cycle an overstocked tank, which is the hardest way to do it. But it can be done.

 

[Sk3lly]

I simply dont agree with high ammonia and nitrite levels overwhelming bacteria!! Sounds completely ridiculous to me. Would love to see evidence of some sort.

Why would a large food source overwhelm them? Surely they would thrive??

Take a colony of shrimp as an example. Underfeed and the population will decline to a level where the food source can sustain them. Overfeed and the population will explode. I THINK this is the same for bacteria

 

[squirrilah fish]

My biggest problem with a large overstock like that isn't the here and now but the future.

In my opinion 50% water change weekly should be done anyway (not necessary)

So you may be keeping on top of the large overstock with large water changes but what if you decide to skip a week? Well nitrates get high. What if you go away on holiday???

I think overstocking offers no safty net

If the tank cycles to adjust to that many fish, which is totally possible, the big danger there, the lack of a safety net is because of the nitrates.
Fish CAN survive with high prolonged exposure to nitrates. It WILL kill them eventually, and it DEFINITELY can lead to disease.

BUT it is also easier to control.
You may need to do 50% water changes daily, (not fun) you can use plants, Purigen, or an algae scrubber to SLOW DOWN the rise of Nitrates,
Just remember Nitrates under 40ppm are considered (safe)

I have no problem keeping mine under 20ppm. (Usually under 10)

You will get to know your tank, you will figure our how much nitrates go up per day, you will see the correlation between nitrates and how much you feed. (The less you feed the better)
Being aware of how your levels are on a day to day basis FOR MONTHS will help you be prepared to deal with vacations, missing a week, unexpected time away, etc.

Over time you might decide it's too much work, and dump half your stock, or get a bigger tank.

This is pretty common for new aquarists. We jump right in, over zealous, excited, we have a plan of our gorgeous perfect setups, and are shortly humbled by the time and effort to maintain it, but it is very doable.

Be patient, keep at it, and you will find that balance between what is best for you, best for you fish, and best for your wallet.

That's really what it is all about, balancing those three things.

 

[Sk3lly]

If the tank cycles to adjust to that many fish, which is totally possible, the big danger there, the lack of a safety net is because of the nitrates.
Fish CAN survive with high prolonged exposure to nitrates. It WILL kill them eventually, and it DEFINITELY can lead to disease.

BUT it is also easier to control.
You may need to do 50% water changes daily, (not fun) you can use plants, Purigen, or an algae scrubber to SLOW DOWN the rise of Nitrates,
Just remember Nitrates under 40ppm are considered (safe)

I have no problem keeping mine under 20ppm. (Usually under 10)

You will get to know your tank, you will figure our how much nitrates go up per day, you will see the correlation between nitrates and how much you feed. (The less you feed the better)
Being aware of how your levels are on a day to day basis FOR MONTHS will help you be prepared to deal with vacations, missing a week, unexpected time away, etc.

Over time you might decide it's too much work, and dump half your stock, or get a bigger tank.

This is pretty common for new aquarists. We jump right in, over zealous, excited, we have a plan of our gorgeous perfect setups, and are shortly humbled by the time and effort to maintain it, but it is very doable.

Be patient, keep at it, and you will find that balance between what is best for you, best for you fish, and best for your wallet.

That's really what it is all about, balancing those three things.

Was this aimed at me??

I have no worries keeping trates under control. Im understocked and have a jungle of a tank lol