Interesting cycle results...long post

[happygirl65]

OK, I have been here for a while reading and planning and getting lots of great and helpful advice.

I made a plan to fishless cycle, which got shot down pretty hard in my family. (Some of you may remember from prev. posts.)

Not only due to impatience on the part of my husband and kids, but due to the "wealth of experience" my mother in law has had with fish. I know what you are thinking.....here we go....I thought the same thing. I would just smile and nod telling her how happy I was that she never lost any fish during her cycle but all the while thinking she was NUTS when she said that our water already had all the biological colonies necessary for the nitrogen cycle. She insisted and I doubted trying my hardest not to tell her she was full of it.

After averting the "wintering her goldfish" incident and feeling on track again I filled my tank and tested my parameters. I was ready to start the fishless cycle as planned when my hubby tells me he doesn't want to wait....some of you may remember from earlier posts...I had him read up on the nitrogen cycle and he understood it but told me that I am over thinking all of this and that we should just do the cycle like we have in the past with a few hardy fish citing his mom's experience once again. I felt like I was pushing a boulder up a hill at this point with them.

I then posted and got some advice and decided to go ahead and get a few small fish and as many plants as I could afford to put in there to help speed things along. This included purchasing some ammo lock just incase the ammonia got out of control...which I expected due to my previous experience in years past. And I was all ready to go, daily water changes, etc and had prepared myself up for a bumpy ride.

I have had some interesting results and wanted to put this out there for you experienced folks that may be able to shed some light on what may be happening here.

OK so the basics, 55 gal tank, temp is 75, magnum 350 cannister filter and two 14 in. bubble walls along the back of the tank. Stock lighting (40W total of grow bulbs currently...with a 2x65w PC with 50/50 bulbs on the way)

The tank was running for about 1 week before any fish or plants were added. Params were as expected no chlorine (mt spring water collected from one of many small natural springs on our land, collected and pumped much like a well.) 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate, or at least they were not detectable. ph 7.4 in the tank and hard water (no accurate test available to me as of yet on hardness but we dont have a problem with any mineral deposits on household fixtures)

Day 1
I went to town and got some plants and some fish. And a brand NEW API master test kit.
4 cherry barbs
3 lemon tetras
1 large potted crypt Red Wendtii
1 potted narrow leaf chain sword
1 potted melon sword
There were two more plants but I sent them back when I realized they were bog plants

I then planted them in the gravel (which was from the nearby riverbed, washed very well before putting in the tank) placing flourish tabs under each one. I tested the params with no detectable levels of anything yet. I floated the bag and added them according to suggested procedures making sure not to add any bag water to my tank. I then added some "bacteria supplement" from a bottle I bought at Petsmart and some stress coat. This was about 6 pm

Day 2
I tested the water the next morning with no detectable ammonia, nitrite or nitrate.

Day 3
In the morning I tested ammonia only deciding that until I started seeing ammonia there would be no nitrite or nitrate. Then I went over to my mother in law's house, she gave me the filter pad I requested (I finally bought her a new one since she kept just wanting me to scoop water out of the tank and just use that to seed my tank which she thought was completely unnecessary anyway) So I put it in a gallon ziploc bag and took it straight home and squeezed all the water out of it into the bag then dumped the "squeezins" into my tank. Keeping just enough of it out to test HER water just for curiosity sake...there was 0ammonia, 0 nitrites and 5ppm on nitrate. This seemed to confirm to me that she was indeed completely cycled as I had expected. My params were unchanged but once again, I only tested my tank for ammonia.

Day 4
Today, first thing about 18 hours from when I added her "filter squeezins" I tested my ammonia....still 0 I have been expecting SOME ammonia but so far none that the test can pick up and I have been testing it twice just to be sure....and then for curiosity sake I continued....nitrite tested .25 ppm and nitrate tested at 5ppm.

So now I am thinking What the heck happened? Am I further into the cycle than I thought? I have been feeding the fish twice a day, just what they can eat in 2 min.

Could my mother in law have been correct about our water and the speed at which our tanks cycle because of it? In some of my research of the nitrogen cycle it did indicate that the same process occurs in the earth as well as our fish tanks. Her explanation was that since our method of filtering our water happens naturally via mother nature and our water percolating through the ground and then into our water collectors, and since this "ground" I speak of is heavily forested land, all the necessary bacteria for the cycle is already present and actively processing these nutrients. Does this sound completely off the wall? I am still trying to wrap my mind around it and am now more curious than ever. Or could it be that the three plants I added made that much of an impact on the ammonia levels?

And at what point should I do a PWC? I know to do it once a week after the cycle is complete but what levels of nitrite are acceptable while cycling with fish and how often should I test it...twice a day? more or less? Back when I had a tank before testing for nitrite and nitrate were not a part of the "master test kit" and I was completely unaware of it.

All of the fish are thriving, they love their new home and get along well together. And the plants all look fantastic....they appear to be adjusting well to their new environment.

If my ammonia doesn't rise, my nitrite declines and nitrate rises more over the next week...I might be forced to conclude she was right and complete the school of lemon tetras next time I go to town. I guess this is one time that I wouldn't mind my mother in law being right...lol.

Any insight/input/suggestions are welcome.

[7Enigma]

4 cherry barbs
3 lemon tetras

Very small stocking, would not expect to see much if any ammonia/nitrIte/nitrAte in such a large tank.

So I put it in a gallon ziploc bag and took it straight home and squeezed all the water out of it into the bag then dumped the "squeezins" into my tank. Keeping just enough of it out to test HER water just for curiosity sake...there was 0ammonia, 0 nitrites and 5ppm on nitrate. This seemed to confirm to me that she was indeed completely cycled as I had expected. My params were unchanged but once again, I only tested my tank for ammonia.

So do you mean you squeezed out the filter pad, added that water, and then put the filter pad IN your filter? Or just sqeezed the filter pad out and then didn't use it? The majority of the bacteria are ON the filter, squeezing will definately get some in the water, but not the majority.

Could my mother in law have been correct about our water and the speed at which our tanks cycle because of it?

Nope.

In some of my research of the nitrogen cycle it did indicate that the same process occurs in the earth as well as our fish tanks. Her explanation was that since our method of filtering our water happens naturally via mother nature and our water percolating through the ground and then into our water collectors, and since this "ground" I speak of is heavily forested land, all the necessary bacteria for the cycle is already present and actively processing these nutrients. Does this sound completely off the wall?

Not at all. Small organisms in the soil as the water drops through the water table most definately will convert any detrius into ammonia which is then used up by plants or converted by bacteria into nitrIte and nitrAte, which is then used up by plants, etc.

The *PROBLEM* with this though is that very little if any bacteria will be in this "spring" water. If there was, you would know it (and probably get sick from it).

This is the typical correlation/causation fallacy that causes problems in so many areas. Just because something works/doesn't work/occurs at the same time, doesn't mean they are related or resulting from each other.

And at what point should I do a PWC? I know to do it once a week after the cycle is complete but what levels of nitrate are acceptable while cycling with fish and how often should I test it...twice a day? more or less? Back when I had a tank before testing for nitrite and nitrate were not a part of the "master test kit" and I was completely unaware of it.

If ammonia or nitrIte gets above 0.5ppm I would recommend a water change (25-50%). If nitrAtes get above 40ppm I would recommend a water change. You've got fish present, the cycle MEANS NOTHING. That is the reason we suggest fishless cycling. With fish present, they come first, and the cycle and anything else comes second. With fish, I would test once a day until you get detectable levels, now that you're seeing nitrIte I would check twice a day (in the morning and at night).

55 gal tank, temp is 75, magnum 350 cannister filter and two 14 in. bubble walls along the back of the tank. Stock lighting (40W total of grow bulbs currently...with a 2x65w PC with 50/50 bulbs on the way)

1 potted narrow leaf chain sword
1 potted melon sword

And the plants all look fantastic....they appear to be adjusting well to their new environment.

With your lighting level and no CO2 I doubt this will last unfortunately except for the crypt until you get the new lights....

If my ammonia doesn't rise, my nitrite declines and nitrate rises more over the next week...I might be forced to conclude she was right and complete the school of lemon tetras next time I go to town. I guess this is one time that I wouldn't mind my mother in law being right...lol.

Not right, just uninformed. Your low stocking level for your size tank, with seed material from your MIL, with plants present is what is keeping your levels low. Had you fully stocked your tank without seed material or plants, you would be tirelessly doing PWC's right now.

[Jarred Darque]

Agree with last poster, You simply have alot of small things on your side which makes it look like your MIL may have been right.. she wasnt. Plants can keep Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates all at 0, or undetectable. With enough plants and low enough stocking, you wont even HAVE a cycle, the plants will do all the work, and when/if the plants go, they will simply re-release all the bad stuff into th tank water again.

So do as you have been doing, keep testing the water, dont concede, you are right, and a fishless cycle woulda been the way to go, I am sorry about the pressure , but you did what you had to do there.

When adding new fish, do it slowly, like I said, your tank prolly isnt cycling much at all, if at all, so you dont want to go too far over what the plants can handle at once.

[happygirl65]

So do you mean you squeezed out the filter pad, added that water, and then put the filter pad IN your filter? Or just sqeezed the filter pad out and then didn't use it? The majority of the bacteria are ON the filter, squeezing will definately get some in the water, but not the majority.

Yes I squeezed the heck out of it and scraped the gunk. It was very cloudy with lots of icky looking stuff but yeah I just dumped that stuff in. I guess I should have put the whole thing in.

The *PROBLEM* with this though is that very little if any bacteria will be in this "spring" water. If there was, you would know it (and probably get sick from it).

This is the typical correlation/causation fallacy that causes problems in so many areas. Just because something works/doesn't work/occurs at the same time, doesn't mean they are related or resulting from each other.

I am sure you are right, no one has ever gotten sick off of our water and it does not have any strange or earthy smell to it. As for the cause and coincidental realtionship I agree with you there too. I know for a fact she has never tested her water...I guess in MIL's case her ignorance is bliss?

If ammonia or nitrIte gets above 0.5ppm I would recommend a water change (25-50%). If nitrAtes get above 40ppm I would recommend a water change. You've got fish present, the cycle MEANS NOTHING. That is the reason we suggest fishless cycling. With fish present, they come first, and the cycle and anything else comes second. With fish, I would test once a day until you get detectable levels, now that you're seeing nitrIte I would check twice a day (in the morning and at night).

Will Do. Thanks for the numbers, that really helps me.

With your lighting level and no CO2 I doubt this will last unfortunately except for the crypt until you get the new lights

Would you suggest returning the swords? I ordered the lights mid last week and they are in transit, should arrive within a few days. And at the new light level is it your opinion that the swords will still suffer without CO2? I do appreciate the input.

Not right, just uninformed. Your low stocking level for your size tank, with seed material from your MIL, with plants present is what is keeping your levels low. Had you fully stocked your tank without seed material or plants, you would be tirelessly doing PWC's right
now.

Does this mean the tank will never cycle with the current inhabitants because of the low bioload? Should I add a few more just to make sure there is a food source for the nitirfying bacteria? Or are they getting what they need before the plants use it up? Although I agree that the cycle comes secondary to the healthy of the fish, I would still like it to cycle so that I know when it is safe to add more fish to keep it all in check.

Or is it a non-issue with having plants to use up the toxic amonia and nitrite? These aren't particularly fast growing plants but obviously they still use up some of the nutrients.

Testing routinely will always be in order along with regular PWCs. And I will ALWAYS make sure the levels stay in the ranges you mentioned no matter how many PWC that means....at least that is something that MIL and DH can have no say in since I am the one doing all of the work.

Perhaps continuing to stock slowly enough and adding plants will keep things in balance? I guess only time and lots of testing will tell.

[Jarred Darque]

If you just stock slowly without adding more plants, things should be fine, you may have a mini cycle, but it would trully be mini. Or if you decided to do a large stocking increase, it might be ok, or it might be better if you added a few more plants at the same time to cushion the blow to the system.

the best thing here is that you are more interested in doing things the right way then by what your MIL got lucky with, and that you care for the sake of the fish more than the appearance of the tank right now.

Now dont get me wrong here, I am hardly one of those people who is going to want you charged with inhumane treatment of animals if some fishies die...I kill em all the time, what can I say, they taste great, and I dont expect anyone to ever...bah notgood with words, anyways, keep doin what your doin, and make sure you have fun with it.

[7Enigma]

Would you suggest returning the swords? I ordered the lights mid last week and they are in transit, should arrive within a few days. And at the new light level is it your opinion that the swords will still suffer without CO2? I do appreciate the input.

No, once you get the upgraded lighting you should be fine with the swords. 1.5wpg isn't the greatest for them, but they should do alright. And you need them now to keep the ammonia levels down. You have root tabs which is pretty much a must as they are heavy root feeders. You will be at ~1.5wpg with the 50/50 bulbs so CO2 isn't necessary. I would probably do 10-12hours of lighting to start with.

Does this mean the tank will never cycle with the current inhabitants because of the low bioload? Should I add a few more just to make sure there is a food source for the nitirfying bacteria? Or are they getting what they need before the plants use it up? Although I agree that the cycle comes secondary to the healthy of the fish, I would still like it to cycle so that I know when it is safe to add more fish to keep it all in check.

Or is it a non-issue with having plants to use up the toxic amonia and nitrite? These aren't particularly fast growing plants but obviously they still use up some of the nutrients.

Testing routinely will always be in order along with regular PWCs. And I will ALWAYS make sure the levels stay in the ranges you mentioned no matter how many PWC that means....at least that is something that MIL and DH can have no say in since I am the one doing all of the work.

Perhaps continuing to stock slowly enough and adding plants will keep things in balance? I guess only time and lots of testing will tell.

I would not stock any more fish for at least a week or two. This will give enough time to get a cycle going pretty well. The fact that you have nitrItes tells us that the ammonia to nitrIte converting bacteria are getting established, now the nitrIte to nitrAte bacteria need to multiply. Adding in more fish now will only make the nitrIte issue worse, and possibly cause an ammonia issue.

Swords are very fast growers under the right circumstances. This is great since they can absorb a LOT of ammonia and nitrAte, so you definately want them there.

Do you have fertilizers? For your size tank I'd recommend gregwatson.com and pick up a variety (I'll post back with exact chemicals if you want). You definately will probably need a nitrAte source, especially for the next week or two before additional fish are added. One of the WORST things in a planted tank is to bottom out on nitrAtes. That is when the algae comes out of the woodwork!

Bacteria survive (and thrive) on levels we cannot detect with our simple liquid tests. Think about established tanks, you never detect ammonia or nitrIte because they are being converted so rapidly that they never build up to the "high" levels that our tests detect. So no, they will not starve.

HTH, and sorry if its a bit out of order...

[happygirl65]

Thanks so much! I really DO care about the fishes or I would never have posted.

I did buy the root tabs and a bottle of flourish liquid...but my lovely daughter dumped it all out on the floor while I was trying to put away all the groceries that day. (I now have a dedicated top shelf in a cabinet for all of my supplies.

I also bought a bottle of Leaf Zone which looks to me to be relatively the same as the flourish but slightly different concentration of the minerals/nutirents. I was going to take it back but since the other got wasted I decided I might as well keep it. I am open to returning it and getting something different if need be.

I would greatly appreciate any input on what fertilizers to get and what/when to dose etc. I really appreciate all the support and advice.

Thanks a million!

[7Enigma]

Originally Posted by happygirl65

I would greatly appreciate any input on what fertilizers to get and what/when to dose etc. I really appreciate all the support and advice.

Thanks a million!

www.gregwatson.com is the site that I mentioned in the previous post. I would recommend 2lbs of potassium sulfate, 2lbs of potassium nitrAte (if you plan on having a lightly stocked tank, otherwise just 1lb), 1lb of monopotassium phosphate, and 1lb of CSM+B (this is a trace mix). You can purchase a box of epsom salt if you need to dose Magnesium (but really only if your GH is very low and I would assume if this is spring water it will have a high GH). Those will last you a LONG time, and be much cheaper and effective then the Flourish liquid ferts or that Leafzone. I would return the Leafzone and put the money towards the dry ferts.

[happygirl65]

Originally Posted by 7Enigma

www.gregwatson.com is the site that I mentioned in the previous post. I would recommend 2lbs of potassium sulfate, 2lbs of potassium nitrAte (if you plan on having a lightly stocked tank, otherwise just 1lb), 1lb of monopotassium phosphate, and 1lb of CSM+B (this is a trace mix). You can purchase a box of epsom salt if you need to dose Magnesium (but really only if your GH is very low and I would assume if this is spring water it will have a high GH). Those will last you a LONG time, and be much cheaper and effective then the Flourish liquid ferts or that Leafzone. I would return the Leafzone and put the money towards the dry ferts.

Thanks for the tips. I will do just that! I am sure you are right about our GH. We do have hard water.

AWESOME website by the way, thanks for the referral. I am sure I will find everything I need there and the prices are great! I really appreciate all of your help.



p.s. The baby in your pic is simply ADORABLE.