Is carbon necessary?

[libbyb]

I have an Aquaclear 500 on my planted FW 55g. Right now, there are 22 cardinals, 6 odessa barbs and a cory.
Do I only need the sponge and ammo chips?

 

[mfdrookie516]

Do I only need the sponge and ammo chips?

Personally, I wouldn't use ammo chips. I've seen way too much about how they can have a negative effect on your tank. All you need is the sponges and some sort of bio-media like the ceramic rings that come with them.

And to answer the question in the thread title, no, carbon is not necessary unless you're trying to remove meds

 

[libbyb]

I thought ammo chips were ceramic. What are they?

 

[mfdrookie516]

ammo chips are made of zeolite

 

[libbyb]

Oh. What negative can come of using it? All I know is that it removes heavy metals. Right?

 

[mfdrookie516]

Are you asking about carbon or ammo chips? Carbon removes meds (and supposedly smells). Ammo Chips absorb ammonia. The negative impacts they can have are just that. They absorb ammonia. Your system has to have ammonia in it to feed the bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrites and so on. Without ammonia, those bacteria die. When you run ammo chips, you can essentially kill the cycle.

 

[libbyb]

I was asking about the ammo chips.
I have had ammonia readings and have done PWC's then it was fine. I have yet to see any nitrates. I think I will remove the chips asap and see what happens. Don't plants eat up nitrates? Can or should I add nitrate? (don't fertilizers have nitrates?) I have been using ferts for my plants. Tablets that you bury and a liquid. The tablets seem to break up quickly and get under my fingernails! Also, much of it ends up as crumbs and floats to the surface. I hate those things. Is there another dry fert or can I nix it?

 

[mgamer20o0]

you dont need carbon or the ammona chips you would be better off most likely adding another sponge or so bio media.

tell us more about your tank and what exactly are you using. root tabs and liquid ferts shoot for different things.

 

[JohnPaul]

The only things you NEED to have in your filter are:

• some sort of sponge part (physical removal of debris, etc.)
• some sort of biomedia (usually ceramic), to grow your beneficial bacteria

Anything else (carbon, purigen, ammo chips, you name it) are completely unnecessary and can often do more harm than good, depending upon the circumstances of their use. They are usually sold to beginning hobbyists by unscrupulous pet stores who are, quite frankly, more interested in making $$$ from selling a useless product than they are actually helping people to understanding proper aquarium setup and making good, informed choices.

 

[DragonFish71]

Here's what I've heard on the carbon, ammo-chips debate:

Carbon isn't necessary unless you are trying to remove meds after treatment.
Carbon can strip the necessary trace elements that your tank needs to maintain it's health.

Ammo-chips are not necessary but if you have an over stocked tank they can be beneficial. Regular cleaning and maintenance are more of a benefit, but the ammo-chips will not harm the tank.

Now, my opinion:

Depending on which tank it is, I do run carbon, ammo-chips or Purigen.

For our 40g planted I use Purigen

For our planted BW, i use ammo-chips

For our 115 soon to be african cichlid tank I use carbon (fake planted)

For our planted 115 tetra/angelfish I use Purigen and ammo-chips. (I'm only running minimal filtration at this point, 1 Fluval 405 and a HOB rated for 60g)

For our planted 20g long floss in the rapids mini-canister filters, ammo-chips in the UGF tube outlet thingies

For our planted 10g shrimp, Purigen in the filter bags

For our planted 29g I run ammo-carb mix. Carbon in that mix because the fish in that tank (pair of always spawning firemouths) constantly dig everything up causing the water to cloud (yeah, even after cleaning)

For our planted 120 I run Purigen and ammo-chips

All our other tanks are on a case to case basis as well.

 

[BillD]

If you are using an AC 500, add a second sponge insert. This is bio media, you can also add a bag of the bio rings, but the sponge is biomedia. prior to the AC 500 becoming the AC110, it did not come with the bag of biorings. The sponge insert was the biomedia. A second sponge basically doubles the biomedia, whether you use the rings or not. it will also help trap solids that get through the first sponge.

 

[JohnPaul]

If you are using an AC 500, add a second sponge insert. This is bio media, you can also add a bag of the bio rings, but the sponge is biomedia. prior to the AC 500 becoming the AC110, it did not come with the bag of biorings. The sponge insert was the biomedia. A second sponge basically doubles the biomedia, whether you use the rings or not. it will also help trap solids that get through the first sponge.

One bag of the ceramic rings (or whatever shape they are in, mine were more like little cylinders) has more surface area to grow biomedia than 100 sponge inserts would have. If you want more bacteria, adding a sponge does not do nearly as much as adding a bag of the ceramic stuff.

 

[BillD]

One bag of the ceramic rings (or whatever shape they are in, mine were more like little cylinders) has more surface area to grow biomedia than 100 sponge inserts would have. If you want more bacteria, adding a sponge does not do nearly as much as adding a bag of the ceramic stuff.

Is this an opinion or do you know this for fact? Again, I will reoterate, the bio cylinders are a recent addition to the AC line. For many years they provided adequate filtration with only 1 sponge insert, that performed double duty of mechanical and biological filtration. Adding a second sponge would double the bio. So, while the cylinders are an excellent bio bed,( provided they stay clean) you under estimate the value of the sponge insert. Perhaps, to get a better idea of the value of reticulted sponge, you should look at a hamburg or mattenfilter.

 

[mfdrookie516]

I've seen a chart from a scientific study regarding ceramic rings vs about any other media you can think of. I cant find it, nor can I remember the specifics, but I do remember that ceramic won big time with nothing even coming close to half what ceramic can do. I agree that an extra sponge would be a great addition. In my AC's, I have a sponge on the bottom, a bag of ceramic rings, then a sponge on top. In my canisters, I have sponges, then 3-4 trays of ceramic media.

 

[libbyb]

I don't have either at the moment but I found some floss bags. I took out the ammo chips and carbon and put the floss under the sponge (so they wouldn't float) Will that suffice until I get a new sponge? Do I need a new sponge if I have the floss? (I don't even think my stupid lfs will have one that size. I'll just get a couple and cut them to size if I have to.) Thanks for saying that the AC500 is now the AC110. I was wondering why I couldn't find it.

 

[libbyb]

you dont need carbon or the ammona chips you would be better off most likely adding another sponge or so bio media.

tell us more about your tank and what exactly are you using. root tabs and liquid ferts shoot for different things.

This is what I have in my 55g other than 22 cardinals, 6 barbs and 1 cory:
4 Amazon sword
4 Kyoto
3 mondo grass
1 dwarf sword
3 hippo grass
2 rosefolia
6 purple waffle
6 cobamba (I think. It doesn't look as delicate)
I am treating with food tabs 0-0-6 and Nutrafin Plant Grow both according to instructions.
My lighting: 1 F32 T8 and 1 40W T8. It also sits in a room with a large window. I have brown algae/diatoms (working on getting some shrimp and nerites. maybe so otos)

 

[JohnPaul]

Is this an opinion or do you know this for fact? Again, I will reoterate, the bio cylinders are a recent addition to the AC line. For many years they provided adequate filtration with only 1 sponge insert, that performed double duty of mechanical and biological filtration. Adding a second sponge would double the bio. So, while the cylinders are an excellent bio bed,( provided they stay clean) you under estimate the value of the sponge insert. Perhaps, to get a better idea of the value of reticulted sponge, you should look at a hamburg or mattenfilter.

Just to throw out some numbers...

Seachem Matrix (which is their particular brand of porour ceramic biomedia, and presumably pretty close to the biomedia made by Hagen for the AquaClears) has been rigorously scientifically tested. One liter of their biomedia (that is, enough of the ceramic media to fit in a 1 L container) contains over 700 square meters of surface area for bacteria. Or in other words, over 7,500 square feet of surface area! I just measured the size of the biomedia bag of the tiniest, smallest AquaClear filter they make. Roughly 7 cm x 6 cm x 3 cm (or 3" x 2" x 1") is all it is. Yet when you do the math, this incredibly tiny bag of biomedia has over 1,200 square feet of surface area for bacteria to colonize (!!!!!!)

Now compare that with a sponge of the same size (especially the very open, airy sponges that AquaClear uses in their filters). You wouldn't even be in the ballpark. If you compared it to a really, really incredibly dense sponge (like the kind used in quality sponge filters) then maybe the gap would close a little. But I still doubt it would come all that close.

As a further way of arguing the point, and to take your own observation and use it against you, if the ceramic media didn't provide significantly more surface area for bacteria than the sponge does...why would Hagen have ever created the ceramic media to begin with?!? Since, as you correctly point out, the sponge is going to do a much better job at physical filtration than the ceramic does. So if the sponge does a better job of physical filtration, and a better (or even equally good) job a bio filtration, then there is absolutely zero reason for Hagen (or any filter company) to invest the time, money, and resources to create ceramic biomedia. It makes no sense. Yet every legit company out there that makes quality HOB or canister filters talks about the sponge material doing mechanical filtration and the ceramic media doing bio filtration.

Even if one didn't understanding anything at all about surface area, etc., just the fact that this is the direction that all of the legit filter manufacturers have gone really tells us all we need to know.

 

[Vircomore]

Just thought I'd add this in since I haven't seen anyone directly answer this question that was asked:

What can go bad with Carbon and Ammo Chips?

Both carbon and Ammo Chips (Zeolite) are chemical absorbers, but they're not unlimited in their function. Eventually the Carbon (and Zeolite) will reach it's "Maximum Absorbtion Potential".

The problem here is that - once carbon or zeolite reaches its "MAP" - not only does it stop absorbing - but it will actually start leeching byproducts BACK into the tank water.

This is why the labels on carbon and ammo chips will usually say somewhere that the material needs to be either replaced, or recharged using some sort of bleach solution, every 30 days.

It's the same reason that you have to replace the carbon in your Filtered Water Pitcher every 2 months... and your Pitcher filter will never experience as much flow as your aquarium filter.

 

[Vircomore]

-- Double Post --

 

[libbyb]

Just to throw out some numbers...

Seachem Matrix (which is their particular brand of porour ceramic biomedia, and presumably pretty close to the biomedia made by Hagen for the AquaClears) has been rigorously scientifically tested. One liter of their biomedia (that is, enough of the ceramic media to fit in a 1 L container) contains over 700 square meters of surface area for bacteria. Or in other words, over 7,500 square feet of surface area! I just measured the size of the biomedia bag of the tiniest, smallest AquaClear filter they make. Roughly 7 cm x 6 cm x 3 cm (or 3" x 2" x 1") is all it is. Yet when you do the math, this incredibly tiny bag of biomedia has over 1,200 square feet of surface area for bacteria to colonize (!!!!!!)

Now compare that with a sponge of the same size (especially the very open, airy sponges that AquaClear uses in their filters). You wouldn't even be in the ballpark. If you compared it to a really, really incredibly dense sponge (like the kind used in quality sponge filters) then maybe the gap would close a little. But I still doubt it would come all that close.

As a further way of arguing the point, and to take your own observation and use it against you, if the ceramic media didn't provide significantly more surface area for bacteria than the sponge does...why would Hagen have ever created the ceramic media to begin with?!? Since, as you correctly point out, the sponge is going to do a much better job at physical filtration than the ceramic does. So if the sponge does a better job of physical filtration, and a better (or even equally good) job a bio filtration, then there is absolutely zero reason for Hagen (or any filter company) to invest the time, money, and resources to create ceramic biomedia. It makes no sense. Yet every legit company out there that makes quality HOB or canister filters talks about the sponge material doing mechanical filtration and the ceramic media doing bio filtration.

Even if one didn't understanding anything at all about surface area, etc., just the fact that this is the direction that all of the legit filter manufacturers have gone really tells us all we need to know.

What about floss? Does that compare?