Lowering PH to quickly?

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Ruutah

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Tampa Bay Area
So I was concerned with the High PH of my tap water, 8.4 or so using the API master kit. So I decided to try some peat in my filter and see how it goes.

I decided to try this experiment with my cory tank, which now has a quartet of otocinclus with them, as it is our most established tank, and I couldn't say no to my wife when we finally found them locally. It's a 5 gallon acrylic tank, with a tetra 2-10i filter in one corner, and a dual sponge filter in the other corner. I picked up a box of Fluval Peat pellets, dumped the carbon out of the filter, and added 4 tablespoons of peat pellets. it's been 48 hours now, and looking in the tank defiantly reminds me of snorkeling/diving in or too close to the Suwannee river (SUPER tannic water). Didn't check the PH the first 24 hours, as I didn't think it was doing a whole lot, due to no real color change in the water. This morning I decided to go ahead and test the PH.

Previous tests before the peat were in the range of 8.4PH, so I was a bit shocked when 48 hours later I got a reading of 7.6PH. Is this too fast of a shift for the fish? Should I pull the cartridge with the peat in it, and drop a cartridge with carbon back in? (I know that will help clear the water, but will that slow the shift down?) How about my cycle? will a big swing like that hurt it?
 
So I was concerned with the High PH of my tap water, 8.4 or so using the API master kit. So I decided to try some peat in my filter and see how it goes.

I decided to try this experiment with my cory tank, which now has a quartet of otocinclus with them, as it is our most established tank, and I couldn't say no to my wife when we finally found them locally. It's a 5 gallon acrylic tank, with a tetra 2-10i filter in one corner, and a dual sponge filter in the other corner. I picked up a box of Fluval Peat pellets, dumped the carbon out of the filter, and added 4 tablespoons of peat pellets. it's been 48 hours now, and looking in the tank defiantly reminds me of snorkeling/diving in or too close to the Suwannee river (SUPER tannic water). Didn't check the PH the first 24 hours, as I didn't think it was doing a whole lot, due to no real color change in the water. This morning I decided to go ahead and test the PH.

Previous tests before the peat were in the range of 8.4PH, so I was a bit shocked when 48 hours later I got a reading of 7.6PH. Is this too fast of a shift for the fish? Should I pull the cartridge with the peat in it, and drop a cartridge with carbon back in? (I know that will help clear the water, but will that slow the shift down?) How about my cycle? will a big swing like that hurt it?


I doubt your fish will be affected by sudden changes in ph. Fish experiences large diurnal ph shifts in planted tanks with no problems. Do the fish seemed to have noticed?

If you don't like the tannins just put some carbon back in.


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The cories were acting like they were going to spawn again yesterday, but we had a pretty nasty storm system roll in today and all the tanks have been rather quiet. I can only spot one of the oto's with the tannic water. But again, everyone is hiding, and being quiet today, and I know where my cories like to hide. :) I figured I would check it again later this evening, as the Nitrites had bumped up to between .25 and .5 ppm. Nitrates were still at 0 and Ammonia was still at .25

I know I should have probably waited till the tank stabilized after adding new fish before adding the peat, but I was concerned with them coming out of a 7.2 tank at the LFS, and was trying to come up with anything shy of chemicals to bring the ph down.

Probably doing a water change on this tank along with my new planted tank again tonight.

As for planted... Well I robbed the Sword and most of the plants out of this tank for the new 14 gallon tank. All it has left in it is inert sand for a substrate, a forest of Giant hairgrass and 4 3x3 patches of Java moss attached to rocks.
 
The cories were acting like they were going to spawn again yesterday, but we had a pretty nasty storm system roll in today and all the tanks have been rather quiet. I can only spot one of the oto's with the tannic water. But again, everyone is hiding, and being quiet today, and I know where my cories like to hide. :) I figured I would check it again later this evening, as the Nitrites had bumped up to between .25 and .5 ppm. Nitrates were still at 0 and Ammonia was still at .25

I know I should have probably waited till the tank stabilized after adding new fish before adding the peat, but I was concerned with them coming out of a 7.2 tank at the LFS, and was trying to come up with anything shy of chemicals to bring the ph down.

Probably doing a water change on this tank along with my new planted tank again tonight.

As for planted... Well I robbed the Sword and most of the plants out of this tank for the new 14 gallon tank. All it has left in it is inert sand for a substrate, a forest of Giant hairgrass and 4 3x3 patches of Java moss attached to rocks.


Then I don't think you have anything to worry about. Keep your eye on that ammonia though and keep changing water. The extra plants would have helped with that too. Higher ph significantly increases the toxicity of ammonia so better to keep it lower in this case but in any case ph is hardly ever something you should focus on too long.


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I doubt your fish will be affected by sudden changes in ph. Fish experiences large diurnal ph shifts in planted tanks with no problems. Do the fish seemed to have noticed?

If you don't like the tannins just put some carbon back in.


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Question for Caliban07...
I'm not one to fret much over small pH changes and as long as I have a reading of anywhere in between 8.4 and 7 my fish don't seem to mind (at least they don't tell me) :)
The only time I almost had a tank wipeout was about a year ago when I did my usual big water change to my African cichlid tank. Due to the tap water's pH being way low that day, I didn't realize I had a pH crash till I saw my fish laying on the bottom gasping heavily, the pH reading was somewhere around 6. This all happened within minutes after the big water change.

That said brings me to the question...why are there so many articles and so much talk about fluctuating pH being detrimental to fish?
 
Question for Caliban07...
I'm not one to fret much over small pH changes and as long as I have a reading of anywhere in between 8.4 and 7 my fish don't seem to mind (at least they don't tell me) :)
The only time I almost had a tank wipeout was about a year ago when I did my usual big water change to my African cichlid tank. Due to the tap water's pH being way low that day, I didn't realize I had a pH crash till I saw my fish laying on the bottom gasping heavily, the pH reading was somewhere around 6. This all happened within minutes after the big water change.

That said brings me to the question...why are there so many articles and so much talk about fluctuating pH being detrimental to fish?


Well I suppose it depends on a number of things. Why has the ph changed? what is changing the ph? How much of it is required to change the ph? In almost every scenario ph change is just the result of other more serious water chemistry issues rather than actual cause and effect.

For example, you tell me the tank was an african cichlid tank. As most people keep these fish in waters that are relatively high in GH and KH I would assume that this may have also been the case.

If added tap water is low in ph then other salts are also low. KH and GH. It is more likely (but still not conclusive) that the rapid fluctuation of the salts that make up these parameters are the cause of your fish death but yet the only measured parameter provided is pH and so we immediately correlate low pH with fish death. Did you happen to measure KH, GH or TDS that day also ?

Fish have to regulate blood ph just like we do and I'm not denying that there are some biological/energy taxing processes that result From this but a healthy well fed fish should be able to carry out these processes with little problem. As is seen many of times in my planted tank where co2 is the main cause of ph drop. Too much co2 would be the cause of death here but I could measure my ph and say that the low ph is the cause.

I could have ammonia in my water and I could add some bicarbonate. This may raise ph that would result in toxic ammonia. My fish would die and I could measure ph and say that I added too much bicarbonate and the ph change killed my fish. Again ph not the direct cause of death.

Most articles on the subject are regurgitated myth passed on and on throughout the years and yet we still ignore the observations we witness with our own eyes.

And those that have actually tested (Tom Barr) still get lambasted because it goes against the grain of the myth.

This is taken from Diana Walstads book ecology of the planted aquarium copied from another forum on a similar subject.

'Daily variations of the water parameters are rarely – if ever – taken into account. Data collected in a freshwater lake (Star Lake, VT) with a very low alkalinity showed a diurnal pH fluctuation beyond the imagination of most hobbyists. Thus, the pH at 10 am was measured at 5.7 (strongly acidic), 9.6 at noon (strongly alkaline), 8.3 at 2 pm (moderately alkaline) and finally, 6.4 at 4 pm (slightly / moderately acidic). Readings were taken at a 0.5M depth. The fluctuation observed was due to the low KH value of the water (something reported for the Amazon river, too) and the presence of large amounts of phytoplankton. Under the circumstance it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to figure what is the “right” pH for any form of aquatic life collected in that lake and which tank could cope with this kind of fluctuation. The low – high points of the day differ by 4 pH points, which means that the concentration of H+ in the morning is 10.000 times higher than at noon, while this change takes place in just two hours. It goes without saying that this pH swing cannot be observed in an aquarium only because we cannot reproduce the amount of light which falls in the Lake. In any case, if somebody reported that a suitable pH for aquatic life collected in this lake should range daily from 5.7 – 9.6 most hobbyists would think it was a typo'

And the thread in which this was obtained is also worth a read.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/co2-injection-leading-to-large-decrease-in-ph.23327/

Hope this helps.


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Caliban07...
In regards to the African tank, yes the KH and GH were very low at the time causing the drop in pH I guess. I think if I didn't react fast enough by adding bicarbonate I would have lost some fish.
I asked a question and I got an answer! Very informative, definitely a lot more than the average aquarist needs to know but at the same time it doesn't hurt to have the knowledge.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, I need a little while to digest it all.
 
Caliban07...
In regards to the African tank, yes the KH and GH were very low at the time causing the drop in pH I guess. I think if I didn't react fast enough by adding bicarbonate I would have lost some fish.
I asked a question and I got an answer! Very informative, definitely a lot more than the average aquarist needs to know but at the same time it doesn't hurt to have the knowledge.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, I need a little while to digest it all.


You're welcome. I'd just like to point out that most of my information and approaches towards fish keeping come from other far more knowledgeable people than me. I read through their data and this enables me to make a decision based on their findings. I practice these findings and see the results for myself. I practice their methods and have had success for the most part. Two and a bit years back in to the hobby and I am beginning to do well and I am understanding why I am doing well and why I may not be doing so well. Some of the chemistry can be a pig to get your head around especially when you're not well versed in that kind of thing but I have to understand. I just have to.

As the saying goes 'deeper understanding leads to greater peace of mind'


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You're welcome. I'd just like to point out that most of my information and approaches towards fish keeping come from other far more knowledgeable people than me. I read through their data and this enables me to make a decision based on their findings. I practice these findings and see the results for myself. I practice their methods and have had success for the most part. Two and a bit years back in to the hobby and I am beginning to do well and I am understanding why I am doing well and why I may not be doing so well. Some of the chemistry can be a pig to get your head around especially when you're not well versed in that kind of thing but I have to understand. I just have to.

As the saying goes 'deeper understanding leads to greater peace of mind'


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Funny thing... in contrast to your comment, I was born and raised in a tropical island and as a kid I would frequent a couple of local tropical fish breeders. They would raise and keep many of the more popular fish as we know from central and south America in huge ponds and homemade display cement tanks with a piece of glass in the front for viewing. To this day I have yet to see such enormous angels, discus, six inch green swordtails, yet this was a place where water chemistry was just trying to maintain "clean" water" and the next water change depended on a rain storm. Still remember the big noisy pump feeding air to tanks and ponds.
Not sure where I'm going with this...
Just making conversation.
 
Funny thing... in contrast to your comment, I was born and raised in a tropical island and as a kid I would frequent a couple of local tropical fish breeders. They would raise and keep many of the more popular fish as we know from central and south America in huge ponds and homemade display cement tanks with a piece of glass in the front for viewing. To this day I have yet to see such enormous angels, discus, six inch green swordtails, yet this was a place where water chemistry was just trying to maintain "clean" water" and the next water change depended on a rain storm. Still remember the big noisy pump feeding air to tanks and ponds.
Not sure where I'm going with this...
Just making conversation.


Haha ??


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One side question I thought of was that I have heard of people keeping discus and driving ph way down using co2. Which I thought sounded ok but now I'm wondering how helpful that is since I assume GH, TDS, etc wouldn't be shifting much?
 
One side question I thought of was that I have heard of people keeping discus and driving ph way down using co2. Which I thought sounded ok but now I'm wondering how helpful that is since I assume GH, TDS, etc wouldn't be shifting much?


Ha yes. I didn't know they did that. Poor discus keepers. Better off just using RO remineralised a tad.

Edit: having said that, with the amount of water changes discus keepers do TDS would be at baseline tap and if they had kinda soft water anyway.....

My water is classed as very soft by the water board yet the ph is 7.5.


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