mollies in fresh or brackish?

[Shadowraven]

As for the information that I am giving you. I deal mostly in facts, not opinions. That doesn't mean that I have no opinion on the matter, but in a debate, I prefer to stick to the facts. From everything I've read, salt does no harm to them. This is hardly surprising though. They come from very hard, alkaline waters in nature.

Waters of this type have a lot of dissolved minerals in them (salt, calcium, metallic salts, sodium, etc.) much like sea water does. They have specifically evolved to living in hard water conditions with high alkalinity.

It should hardly be surprising to anyone that fish of this type would have an easy time adapting to saltwater conditions. Like I said above, there are mollies that have growing populations even in pure marine environments. They may not live to five years there, but few wild fish ever do live to what a captive adapted fishes full lifespan.

If what you are saying is true fishguy, I would like to see the research abstracts on that information.

As to the scaleless fish being intolerant because they are scaleless, I did not say that. I said that scaleless fish for the aquarium are generally much more intolerant of salt then scaled fish are. I did not state why that was so, just that it was.

 

[Fishguy2727]

Mollies are considered euryhaline, meaning they can live in almost any salinity (the way goldfish are erythermal, living in almost any temp). It is not just that they live in very hard water that allows them to acclimate to brackish, but they are found in brackish waters in nature. The debate is whether or not keeping them permanently in brackish water is better or worse for them than keeping them in freshwater.

Facts are just that, the actual data used to make a conclusion, but the conclusion itself is not a fact. For example: 'my mollies do better in brackish water' is not a fact, it is a conclusion. The fact is that the mollies were observably more active, colorful, and healthier in after I started keeping a certain salt level. The problem with this is whether or not the salt alone caused this change. We all know that salt can be a great way to treat stress. It could simply be that the mollies were stressed and never really acclimated. The added salt helped them acclimate but that stopping the use of salt could have resulted in equally healthy, colorful, active mollies (or even moreso). With time (almost) all aquarists improve their methods. The fact that mollies did better after using salt all the time doesn't mean the improvement was solely due to the salt. A better water change schedule, improved food, improved filter maintenance, etc. all improve over time and can contribute to improvements in the fish.

I am not saying that anyone's experience that their mollies do better with salt isn't due to the salt, I am just saying that to truly look at it scientifically these things have to be considered.

 

[McLumpy]

Fishguy2727, do you have any Mollies?

 

[doogle]

no, he absolutly does not. do you? all the knowhow is wothless if you cant practice what you are knowing/talking about. time will tell all on this thread from people who HAVE THEM and have time to talk about their aquaria experiences. what you read is nothing if you dont practice it! tropical fish magazine had a article in january(i think) about it, liveaquaria has mollies in a BRACKISH category..google, or whyatever all say brackish is in their natural environments(for breeding?).i get what fishguy is saying, but it has no value against experience and long term aquaria setups.

 

[McLumpy]

no, he absolutly does not. do you? all the knowhow is wothless if you cant practice what you are knowing/talking about. time will tell all on this thread from people who HAVE THEM and have time to talk about their aquaria experiences. what you read is nothing if you dont practice it! tropical fish magazine had a article in january(i think) about it, liveaquaria has mollies in a BRACKISH category..google, or whyatever all say brackish is in their natural environments(for breeding?).i get what fishguy is saying, but it has no value against experience and long term aquaria setups.

Yep, I have 4 Mollies. There's a post about them on this thread.

I was asking him if he had any because I was curious as to why this thread caught his attention. It also seems whenever there's a "debate" in a thread, most of the people w/ the most interesting "facts" are the ones that don't even have experience w/ that breed of fish. Just an observation.

 

[doogle]

lol, ya... well. him and myself have been debating for awhile ...lol.... ya i have around 40(at least) mollies ....we all want facts..i do, but if you find any that have not been mentioned here, please report them...Anyway i will adhere to people who know what they are talking about first hand and with knowledge and experience.

 

[Shadowraven]

What you are saying may be true, I haven't had the opportunity to confirm it. But I will definitely investigate those claims. I am hardly a neophyte to the matters scientific, so I can recognize the difference between facts and conclusions.

When I stated that I believed that they were able to adapt easily to saltwater environments due to their preferences for hard water, that was a conclusion, or more properly, a hypothesis. From what I know of this subject, I would also consider it a logical one. It may be correct, or it may not be. There is not yet any hard data available to us here to support our conclusions one way or the other.

However, the observable results would seem to suggest that it was the addition of salt to their water that triggered their improved behavior, rather than something else. It may even be the increase of alkalinity, which would still be because of the salt. Mollies do not appear to do well in soft, acidic waters.

Their ability to thrive in saltwater would therefore be considered to be a conclusion. But it is one with more data available to back it up.

As I said before:

Fact #1) They are found in saltwater systems.
Fact #2) They demonstrate the ability to maintain stable breeding populations in those locations.

Observation #1) Similar types of fish will not breed without the right conditions being available. They will certainly not be likely to maintain any population that is stable over time for similar reasons.
Observation #2) Experiences collected from numerous hobbyists suggest that mollies are able to exist in these environments to no ill effect.

Hypothesis) Weighing the facts available to us, along with observations above, it is reasonable to say that these fish appear to thrive in saltwater environments.

My own long term experience with these fish (25+ yrs), along with the anecdotal evidence I have heard (or read), would seem to strongly support this hypothesis as well. I have had mollies that lived as long as 4 years in these conditions, with no visible ill effects. Considering that their average captive lifespan is 3-to-5 years, that is pretty good.

Until new data or hard evidence is presented to contradict this hypothesis, this is likely to be the conclusion that many of us in the hobby will be working from. It is already the assumption that many supposed fish experts make. This is how scientists form ideas about the world. The main difference being that many of us will not be running any double-blind tests to confirm it as a theory, rather than just a hypothesis.

 

[Fishguy2727]

This thread was started out of a debate from another thread (arguably as bait) but went well most of the thread.

But with someone answering for me telling me what my experiences are, what fish I have and do not have, and saying that what I have to say is worthless I am done here. There is obviously no true discussion, just repeating that one type of experience is better than another.

Anyone reading:
Research before you add mollies who were bred and raised in freshwater into a brackish tank.

 

[McLumpy]

This thread was started out of a debate from another thread (arguably as bait) but went well most of the thread.

But with someone answering for me telling me what my experiences are, what fish I have and do not have, and saying that what I have to say is worthless I am done here. There is obviously no true discussion, just repeating that one type of experience is better than another.

Anyone reading:
Research before you add mollies who were bred and raised in freshwater into a brackish tank.

So, um, does this mean you have never owned Mollies? lol

Listen guys and gals, this shouldn't be a debate. Either they take to salt or they don't. It depends primarily on how they were bred.

Fishguy2727 does have a valid point though, do your research. This goes for all fish, not just Mollies. I did my research, but only after a few casualties. And yes, all of my Mollies were bred in a brackish environment. The manager of the Petco here, (who is in charge of ordering the fish), told me that their supplier does breed them in brackish water. It can also be confirmed via their website.

When I first got the Mollies, I was unaware of them being bred this way. Then when it was brought to my attention, I was given advice to not use salt and that they would adjust to freshwater. I lost a few good Mollies due to this advice, (provided to me by an employee at Petco nonetheless that didn't even own a Molly or any fish for that matter).

As far as freshwater fish adapting to a slightly brackish environment, IME, I've seen them do it. But this depends on the fish and how much salt is added to the tank. I do believe that adding the recommended amount of salt could be harmful to freshwater fish. This is why I only add a small amount to my tank.

That's my 2cents. Carry on...

 

[jenatron]

Edit: I had something typed out, but instead I'll just leave it at we should be a little more polite. (Not pointing fingers at anyone specifically)

 

[Shadowraven]

fishguy: I agree with all of your last comments.

McLumpy: You are giving good, sound advice here. You have obviously learned your lessons form experience.

jenatronQT3: Ditto

The only point that I was trying to make in all of this was that mollies can thrive in saltwater environments. That said, it doesn't mean that you should suddenly throw your mollies into one.

Like McLumpy said, if they were raised in freshwater, they will need to be slowly introduced into salty one. If they were raised in brackish, then they are already salt adapted and will do best in one.

I'm sorry to see that this thread devolved into what it did. For myself, I always enjoy a good debate. These type of discussions allow people to see the differing viewpoints that exist on the subjects being debated. That is, just so long as they remain civil. But, I will never attack my opponents, only the points they are making. Thank you fishguy for your input.

 

[meegosh]

Lets keep this thread constructive or it will be closed. I think everyone has added their opinions by this point.

 

[DragonFish71]

But you also have to take into consideration the type of salt being used. Reef salt will provide the higher pH that mollies love where as aquarium salt does not have all the same components. And of course there are the folks who use kosher salt, or even table salt (yeah, some folks do believe it or not).

I can honestly say, having kept mollies in a tank with aquarium salt when I was a kid to keeping them in a tank where I monitor the SG and use a better class of salt, IE reef, my mollies have had a longer life span, breed like mad (luckily the gobys keep the numbers down) and all around have a healthier look to them.


Back home we used to catch them wild in BW areas where ocean met river. We also used to catch guppies, gambusia, flag fish and sometimes platys (rarely). My dad used to take me to this old, ramshackle fish store, place looked like it was going to fall over, but in the back they kept mollies in concrete bins filled with BW. That's the only way they would sell them. Seems they caught most of their molly stock wild and unlike some places, they kept them in their natural water type. You can go into almost any LFS today and hardly ever see a wild caught BW fish in a BW tank. Dragon gobys are wild caught, yet kept in FW. Can they survive in FW? Yeah, but not for long and certainly not thrive.


Either way, google BW or FW for mollies and you'll get half saying BW, the other saying FW. But google BW fish and the molly always pops up. *Shrugs*

 

[jenatron]

For anyone who was looking for a resource like I was I found one that has pacified me. Since there are no facts (that any of us have found) on if salt itself is harmful or necessary, I felt this was a good explanation.
The great molly-salt debate
It'd be really neat if there was a legit study done though, that we knew of. Mollies kept in freshwater and brackish water, study them until they die and open 'em up and see the differences. I feel that's the only way this hobby-wide argument could be put to rest.

 

[mfdrookie516]

Anything on the internet has the potential of being incorrect. I can say that I keep mollies and have noticed they live much longer, healthier lives and reproduce much more often if I toss in a mandarin orange once a week. This can be read by someone who takes it to heart, then passes it on. Eventually, everybody online is saying that mandarin oranges make mollies live longer and healthier.

Disclaimer: I do not own mollies, nor do I put mandarin oranges in my tanks.

 

[jenatron]

But.. I've been supplementing all my tanks with madarin oranges??

 

[ejaramillo01]

Ups!! Finally the secret came out!!, mandarin oranges !!

With seeds or seedless??

 

[Shadowraven]

That's one I never tried. Fresh squeezed or canned? If canned, should I add the syrup in with the oranges? Also how do you test the water for the proper concentration of orange juice? Does it go good with breakfast?

I agree with DragonFish on the salt. As I said above marine salt has many other components to it besides just sodium chloride. That is what BW fish will be used to as well. Reef salt is almost always going to be a better choice for any BW tank.

 

[Fishguy2727]

Koi love oranges, among other things. Hadn't heard it for mollies though.

Nice article. Fortunately that is from FAMA magazine, not just some website.

If you use salt all the time use a salt mix for saltwater aquariums, not 'aquarium salt' for freshwater. That is best for treating problems in freshwater, not using all the time. If you have marine salt don't even use the aquarium salt, just use the marine salt if you need to treat something in a freshwater tank.

 

[doogle]

Any more people want to share some experiences about mollies being in fresh/brackish water?