My thoughts on filtration capacity

[Mebbid]

There are some fairly well established guidelines out there for filtering a tank which is fine. It gives good guidelines for setting up a tank and for someone entering this hobby, that is a godsend But from what I've seen the guidelines seem to be a bit.... skewed.

Based on a dozen or so different posts on this forum that I've seen on this forum I've came to realize a few things.

For one: Changing filter pads
I've seen more than a few new people on this forum that regularly change their filter pads. Most of them have newly set up tanks and are still going through their original fish in cycle. Changing out the filter pads at this point is obviously a terrible idea. But there are a few out there with well established tanks that were religiously changing their filter pads on a monthly basis and saw absolutely no issues or mini cycles from it in any way.

This shows that the bacterial colony migrated from the filter pads to all of the tank decor instead.

I also saw the misfortune of one individual that had been changing his filter pads regularly and then decided to change his gravel out for sand. Due to the lack of bio filter on the filter pad and the removal of the gravel it completely reset his cycle and he basically had to start over at ground 0.

Two:
Number of filters.

Aside from flow, my original observations about bacterial colonies outside of the filter shows that we shouldn't need to have additional filters on our heavily stocked tanks as long as we have sufficient flow. Adding extra filters is just unnecessary because the bacteria will establish itself wherever it finds some flow.

Sorry for the long post, I just thought these were some interesting observations that I wanted to share. Does anyone have any thoughts on any of this?

 

[bshenanagins]

By filter pads are we talking the polishing pads? Because those should be changed often as its only purpose is, well polishing lol. If your referring to the courser stuff like sponges then yeah, those should not be removed EVER. Unless they are falling apart there is no reason to dispose of them. Some think because it turns a nasty color means it's bad, which is beyond false. You should only have to rinse them out with tank water to remove large debris that may have been lodged. Anything with a large surface area in the tank is a breeding ground for BB. But by just removing some pads should not initiate a cycle. Possibly a very brief mini cycle, but if your back to square one then something is wrong with your setup. The course pads should not be the only source of biological hosting. It's job is mechanical, but serves a biological purpose as well, as do chemical media that becomes exhausted. Personally, I do not feel chemical media is at all necessary. With the right filter, proper media (sponges, bio media, polishing pads/floss) and the proper amount of water in relation to the turn over rate, your water will be superb.

 

[Mebbid]

Yes, I meant the coarse filter pads that the filter companies recommend get changed monthly in order to turn a profit.

When those pads are removed on a regular basis the bacterial colony will migrate elsewhere in the tank. While I agree with you that they shouldn't be removed... ever, I don't believe that the consequences are as grim as we would have people believe as long as it's a regular practice.

 

[bshenanagins]

Yes, I meant the coarse filter pads that the filter companies recommend get changed monthly in order to turn a profit.

When those pads are removed on a regular basis the bacterial colony will migrate elsewhere in the tank. While I agree with you that they shouldn't be removed... ever, I don't believe that the consequences are as grim as we would have people believe as long as it's a regular practice.

I agree as well. My point being was that I can't see it being an issue, unless you have a severe lack of bio media. For instance, pads and carbon only, which is typical for some HOBs. My filters are stuffed with ceramic rings with one polishing pad to top off the last bio basket, and one basket dedicated to filter floss. I don't even use course pads in my Xp4 but my fluval 304 I have them.

 

[bud29]

I think the effects of filter pad changing are dependent on how much of your filter media are pads. On, say, aquaclears, if you have foam/carbon/biomedia, changing out the pad really won't do much harm, since you still have 2/3 of your media left. You did remove some BB, but there is enough left to handle the tank's bioload in a timely manner. For this reason you can transfer seeded media to other filters and not go through a mini-cycle. When filter pads make up half or more of your total media, it is then that you run into issues when doing monthly replacements.

 

[Rivercats]

One filter is not always sufficient. A lot depends on each individual tank. I run 3 Fluval 406's on the 220. One is strictly for bio-media. The other two are mechanical, chemical, or whatever I need them for but have a lot of Polyfill in them. One filter in a large tank even with the use of powerheads to increase flow/circulation just wouldn't cut it. There are larger filters like the FX5 but they too have drawbacks. I often run a canister filter on my tanks like my 2- 55g ones but also have an HOB that has nothing but polyfill in it. There can be advantages to overfiltering and depending on the fish or bioload overfiltering is actually needed.

Before I got my kids to take the grandkids 8 large fancy goldfish to their houses I had 4 8"+ GF in each 55g tank. I ran a Fluval 406 with a Wisper EX70. I had to clean the 406 every 2-3 weeks due to the amount of waste the fish produced. I also had to use 2 of the baskets for bio-media to help handle the load of ammonia which GF produce. So the HOB was stuffed with Polyfill and changed out weekly. One filter would not cut it on those tanks. So as far as filtration goes in general each tank has to have enough filtration for what the bioload is. One of the 55g's is now planted and only running 1 Fluval 406 as I am currently stocking it with all nano fish (chili rasboras, clown killifish, scarlet badis, Burmese rosey loaches, and aspidoras albater). This tank won't need any additional filtration. So filtration has to be determined to the needs of each individual tank.

 

[Mebbid]

Were the extra filters put in place do to excess ammonia being detected? Or were the filters added just because of the belief that they were needed?

My argument is that as long as there is enough flow the bacteria will establish itself to handle the bio load wherever there is space.

 

[Rivercats]

There has to be enough bio-material in a filter for enough BB to grow on for the needs of a tank, which is different for each tank. Large, messy fish often have issues with ammonia in their tanks which means there is not sufficient area/media for BB.

But, and this is a big but, filters are every bit as much if not more so for mechanical filtration. You can't just look at the bacterial capacity of them. I run multiple filters for mechanical filtration more than for bacterial filtration. You have to look at the entire picture of filtration and not just focus on one aspect of it.

As for GF they produce a ton of ammonia and you need enough media in the filters to allow enough BB to grow. Your making a general assumption that enough BB can grow on whatever filter space is available for any given tank regardless of the stock.

 

[bshenanagins]

There has to be enough bio-material in a filter for enough BB to grow on for the needs of a tank, which is different for each tank. Large, messy fish often have issues with ammonia in their tanks which means there is not sufficient area/media for BB.

But, and this is a big but, filters are every bit as much if not more so for mechanical filtration. You can't just look at the bacterial capacity of them. I run multiple filters for mechanical filtration more than for bacterial filtration. You have to look at the entire picture of filtration and not just focus on one aspect of it.

As for GF they produce a ton of ammonia and you need enough media in the filters to allow enough BB to grow. Your making a general assumption that enough BB can grow on whatever filter space is available for any given tank regardless of the stock.

Ahh good point. So what Rivercats is getting at I believe is you could potentially have a max of BB in your filter and tank decor etc., but it still may not be enough for your tank depending on stock and so on and so forth. By adding another filter, your increasing BB colony potential. In Rivercats case she uses multiple to focus on different stages of filtration. Correct me if I'm wrong Janis. I'm huge a fan of the concept but I'm not in possession of multiple canisters, nor can I afford the electric

 

[Rivercats]

Ahh good point. So what Rivercats is getting at I believe is you could potentially have a max of BB in your filter and tank decor etc., but it still may not be enough for your tank depending on stock and so on and so forth. By adding another filter, your increasing BB colony potential. In Rivercats case she uses multiple to focus on different stages of filtration. Correct me if I'm wrong Janis. I'm huge a fan of the concept but I'm not in possession of multiple canisters, nor can I afford the electric

Yep you pretty much said it all and with me running metal halide lights and two huge pond pumps outside a couple extra filters won't make much difference on my electric bill... lol!

 

[bud29]

I think it's possible to have a powerhead as the only filtartion - but - I'm not exactly sure why one would want to. A koralia 240 runs at around $25, and for $15 more you can get an aquaclear 70 which has 60gph more flow, and lots of media room so there is much more available space for bacteria to colonize. In addition, it would keep the water clearer with the filter pads. So, you can achieve more efficient filtration without your wallet taking much of a hit.

Also, if you force the autotrophic bacteria to colonize on a large section of tank decor, what will happen to the heterotrophic bacteria that normally colonize on surfaces? Will their numbers be affected? I'm no microbiologist, so I really don't know, but that's just something I thought about.

 

[Mebbid]

Heh I see exactly what you are saying. I also agree with what you are saying about the specific needs of tanks. But your tank can't even come close to being considered average. I would bet you could remove all forms of biological filtration from your filters and never see any rise in ammonia.

How many people on this forum have an actual need of more mechanical filtration than is provided by a single pad in a filter?

I'm aiming this more at the middle of the road tanks rather than the outliers such as heavily planted tanks and godly tanks.

I've seen it happen to numerous people on this forum where their tank decor readily adjusts its bio load to suit the lack of BB in a filter. It's standard practice to tell people they need extra filtration on their fully stocked community tank when the bacteria will grow everywhere to accomodate.

 

[bshenanagins]

Heh I see exactly what you are saying. I also agree with what you are saying about the specific needs of tanks. But your tank can't even come close to being considered average. I would bet you could remove all forms of biological filtration from your filters and never see any rise in ammonia.

How many people on this forum have an actual need of more mechanical filtration than is provided by a single pad in a filter?

I'm aiming this more at the middle of the road tanks rather than the outliers such as heavily planted tanks and godly tanks.

I've seen it happen to numerous people on this forum where their tank decor readily adjusts its bio load to suit the lack of BB in a filter. It's standard practice to tell people they need extra filtration on their fully stocked community tank when the bacteria will grow everywhere to accomodate.

I think even then to generalize is difficult. Some people are not as lucky with tap water conditions and can't afford RO/DI units. But I get what your trying to say

 

[GodFan]

I disagree. A filter (whether sponge, hob, or canister) is very important for biological filtration. Very little BB builds on decor. I have removed all the decor from my tanks and rinsed under tap water with no mini cycle. I have also changed my gravel to sand with no mini cycle. Most of your BB is in the filter media.

 

[Rivercats]

Heh I see exactly what you are saying. I also agree with what you are saying about the specific needs of tanks. But your tank can't even come close to being considered average. I would bet you could remove all forms of biological filtration from your filters and never see any rise in ammonia.

How many people on this forum have an actual need of more mechanical filtration than is provided by a single pad in a filter?

I'm aiming this more at the middle of the road tanks rather than the outliers such as heavily planted tanks and godly tanks.

I've seen it happen to numerous people on this forum where their tank decor readily adjusts its bio load to suit the lack of BB in a filter. It's standard practice to tell people they need extra filtration on their fully stocked community tank when the bacteria will grow everywhere to accomodate.

The only tank I run that "might" be able to run without any biological filtration would be the 220g. And only because that tank has hundreds of fast growing stem plants that could possibly utilize all the ammonia. But then I would still need mechanical and occasional chemical filtration and would, due to the size of this tank alone, need multiple filters.

There are just too many different sinareos even in most average tanks to generalize. You have to take into consideration many people over feed, many overstock, there are many factors that determine how much ammonia is produced in a tank and how much BB is needed.

Which sounding like a broken record is only part of the reason for external filtration. It's all interconnected so to say one filter is enough for all stardard middle of the road aquariums could be a very misleading statement especially for people newer to the hobby. Yes, often times it is enough but not always.

 

[bud29]

I've seen it happen to numerous people on this forum where their tank decor readily adjusts its bio load to suit the lack of BB in a filter. It's standard practice to tell people they need extra filtration on their fully stocked community tank when the bacteria will grow everywhere to accomodate.

I don't think the reason people have no mini-cycle when switching some media is "bacterial migration." They switch out a pad, and the other media handles things. Just as long as a huge amount of media isn't removed, this works. As you said, the BB will colonize where there is flow, and for that reason there isn't a huge amount of autotrophic bacteria on decor. Mainly the bacteria that are on decor are the heterotrophic bacteria, the ones that break down organics (and are 100 times less efficient at nitrification).

 

[Mebbid]

The only tank I run that "might" be able to run without any biological filtration would be the 220g. And only because that tank has hundreds of fast growing stem plants that could possibly utilize all the ammonia. But then I would still need mechanical and occasional chemical filtration and would, due to the size of this tank alone, need multiple filters.

There are just too many different sinareos even in most average tanks to generalize. You have to take into consideration many people over feed, many overstock, there are many factors that determine how much ammonia is produced in a tank and how much BB is needed.

Which sounding like a broken record is only part of the reason for external filtration. It's all interconnected so to say one filter is enough for all stardard middle of the road aquariums could be a very misleading statement especially for people newer to the hobby. Yes, often times it is enough but not always.

That makes a lot of sense. And btw, I was referring to your 220