My Trial with Tetra SafeStart

[eco23]

Hopefully the SafeStart does make a difference for you, but with how long this has dragged out it kind of reminds me of doing a blackout for an algae breakout...it might make it better, but without finding the root cause it'll just come back.

Personally, I'd remove every single organic source in the tank other than the fish. You'd be shocked how much dietrus finds it's way under the substrate. I switched out my gravel for sand a bit ago, and it's jaw dropping how much crap (literally in some cases) finds it's way down there. I'd pull the fish out, give the tank a thorough cleaning from top to bottom (under plants, deco, etc...), rinse the filter media well (obviously in tank or dechlorinated water) to make sure there's no debris, and set it back up. You'll still retain all the beneficial bacteria in the filter media...and there's very, very little BB inside the actual tank you'd lose. That way you can be certain the only ammonia producing source in the tank is the fish. It's kind of a long shot as a solution, but at least you'll be able to isolate other possible causes and hopefully let us get a clearer picture of what's going on.

You've got numerous tanks, right? Never had an issue like this before on others? It reminds me of another thread floating around. Different circumstances, but the same stubborn beneficial bacteria we've got to figure out.

 

[eco23]

Most (if not all) dechlorinators work instantly. Many of us use Pythons and other water changing systems where we add raw tap water directly into the tank after we swish a bit of Prime around into the aquarium itself. Forgetting the dechlorinator entirely would be one thing...but personally I don't think it's related, especially if the filter isn't running during it.

 

[alex07]

Most (if not all) dechlorinators work instantly. Many of us use Pythons and other water changing systems where we add raw tap water directly into the tank after we swish a bit of Prime around into the aquarium itself. Forgetting the dechlorinator would be one thing...but personally I don't think it's related, especially if the filter isn't running during it.

In order to work it has to mix in the water. That is just like when you add food color to water, does it mix instantly? No, it takes a few minutes to mix

 

[eco23]

In order to work it has to mix in the water. That is just like when you add food color to water, does it mix instantly? No, it takes a few minutes to mix

I understand the logic, but the fact that thousands of hobbyists use water changing systems like Pythons / Aqueon water changing systems where dechlorinators and raw tap water are added separately and directly into the tank at different times, and we don't bomb our fish or beneficial bacteria would make me believe it's not a concern. I agree mixing it in individual buckets is best (which I thought Terrance said he did)...I just personally don't see that being the issue.

 

[tarpon]

Well you have to wait till it mixes and you did write that you leave the media floating in the tank, Maybe that's your problem.

Next time you do a water change try this. Before you add the water just put the media back where it goes and fill it with some of remaining water from your tank so it won't get dry. Then once you pour the water in your tank give it sometime for the dechlorinator to mix in the water before you turn on your filter again.

I put the drops in then add it to my tank without waiting and haven't had a mini cycle

 

[Terrance]

There is nothing else living in the tank. I have no plants. The only source of light that gets to the tank is daylight from a window nearby. I added sand to the tank 1 month ago and everything looke clean right now. Before the sand was there, the bottom was bare. All filter medias look pretty clean. Tomorrow, I will go clean out my Eclipse in the hood filter to see if there's any crap stuck inside, and then lift up all the decor to inspect the underneath areas.

All my other tanks are doing well. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and <20 Nitrate with fishless cycle before adding a puffer into those tanks.

This is my only oddball tank. My puffer has been eating more during feedings. Until I can find another root problem, I blame all of this on his increased bioload. Sure I can feed him less, but I can't feed him less than every other day.

 

[alex07]

I understand the logic, but the fact that thousands of hobbyists use water changing systems like Pythons / Aqueon water changing systems where dechlorinators and raw tap water are added separately and directly into the tank at different times, and we don't bomb our fish or beneficial bacteria would make me believe it's not a concern. I agree mixing it in individual buckets is best (which I thought Terrance said he did)...I just personally don't see that being the issue.

No i'm not telling him to mix it individually. He said that he leaves the media floating in the tank correct? He also said as soon as he puts the dechlorinator in the bucket with water he stirs it and adds it right away. So what i am thinking is the water still has some chlorine in it since he's not letting it mix long enough and when he adds it to the tank and is causing a mini cycle since the media being wet with the new water

 

[eco23]

There is nothing else living in the tank. I have no plants. The only source of light that gets to the tank is daylight from a window nearby. I added sand to the tank 1 month ago and everything looke clean right now. Before the sand was there, the bottom was bare. All filter medias look pretty clean. Tomorrow, I will go clean out my Eclipse in the hood filter to see if there's any crap stuck inside, and then lift up all the decor to inspect the underneath areas.

All my other tanks are doing well. 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and <20 Nitrate with fishless cycle before adding a puffer into those tanks.

This is my only oddball tank. My puffer has been eating more during feedings. Until I can find another root problem, I blame all of this on his increased bioload. Sure I can feed him less, but I can't feed him less than every other day.

I agree. It's just the 2 1/2 months which makes me think there's something else going on...I'm just clueless as to what it is, lol. That should be more than enough time for a tank to stabilize unless it's some sort of crazy stocking / bio-load issue like a Goldfish in a bowl...which I know that's not the case here. Make sure you keep us posted...I'm interested to hear how it works out

 

[alex07]

I put the drops in then add it to my tank without waiting and haven't had a mini cycle

Do you have your filter running while you change your water? I'm sure not, so how long are you waiting once you fill your tank with water for you to turn on your filter again?

 

[eco23]

No i'm not telling him to mix it individually. He said that he leaves the media floating in the tank correct? He also said as soon as he puts the dechlorinator in the bucket with water he stirs it and adds it right away. So what i am thinking is the water still has some chlorine in it since he's not letting it mix long enough and when he adds it to the tank and is causing a mini cycle since the media being wet with the new water

Yeah man, I totally get where you're coming from, just personally I don't see it...but it's definitely worth Terrance giving it a try. For example, in my Betta tank, I fill the pitcher about 1/3 full, add Prime, fill the rest of the way and give it a light swish before pouring it directly in. The way that filter is set up the new water is poured directly into the top of the filter media, and the only time it spends sitting is how long it takes to walk from the sink to the tank. Anything is possible, and it obviously doesn't hurt to give it a try though.I just believe we'd be seeing a lot more examples of things like this if that were an issue since it's such a common practice.

 

[alex07]

Yeah man, I totally get where you're coming from, just personally I don't see it...but it's definitely worth Terrance giving it a try. For example, in my Betta tank, I fill the pitcher about 1/3 full, add Prime, fill the rest of the way and give it a light swish before pouring it directly in. The way that filter is set up the new water is poured directly into the top of the filter media, and the only time it spends sitting is how long it takes to walk from the sink to the tank. Anything is possible, and it obviously doesn't hurt to give it a try though.I just believe we'd be seeing a lot more examples of things like this if that were an issue since it's such a common practice.

That is why just to be on the safe. Once i'm done cleaning the media i put it back in the filter and fill it up with water from the tank or i just leave it floating where the old tank water is. I never leave it floating in tank while I add the new water.

 

[Terrance]

After filling a third of the bucket, I add the conditioner. Then fill the other 2/3 of the bucket. Afterwards, I stir for 10 seconds, and go pour the water into the tank.

Well you have to wait till it mixes and you did write that you leave the media floating in the tank, Maybe that's your problem.

Next time you do a water change try this. Before you add the water just put the media back where it goes and fill it with some of remaining water from your tank so it won't get dry. Then once you pour the water in your tank give it sometime for the dechlorinator to mix in the water before you turn on your filter again.

Yeah man, I totally get where you're coming from, just personally I don't see it...but it's definitely worth Terrance giving it a try. For example, in my Betta tank, I fill the pitcher about 1/3 full, add Prime, fill the rest of the way and give it a light swish before pouring it directly in. The way that filter is set up the new water is poured directly into the top of the filter media, and the only time it spends sitting is how long it takes to walk from the sink to the tank. Anything is possible, and it obviously doesn't hurt to give it a try though.I just believe we'd be seeing a lot more examples of things like this if that were an issue since it's such a common practice.

It never hurts to try

Although I have 2 other tanks with the same setup as this problem tank. I change water the exact same way with 0 ammonia and nitrite afterwards.

 

[alex07]

What do you have as a substrate?

 

[Terrance]

sand in all tanks

 

[alex07]

Have you cleaned the whole filter with old tank water?

 

[Terrance]

Tomorrow, I will go clean out my Eclipse in the hood filter to see if there's any crap stuck inside, and then lift up all the decor to inspect the underneath areas.

Last time I took it apart was 3 months ago. I'm probably late on routine maintenance for the filter.

The aquaclear powerhead with quick filter shouldn't really need clean since everything gets caught in the quick filter's sponge material at the intake.

edit: I'm off to bed. Its getting late.

 

[NoMoreGoldFish]

It doesn't sound like you're not growing enough bacteria, it sounds like something is killing some of your bacteria routinely. So instead of trying to grow more bacteria, you might want to figure out what's killing them, that's the long term solution.

 

[Terrance]

My 29 gal is my first tank when I started this hobby. 3.5 months ago, a breeder told me to use his RCS to cycle the tank, so I did that. it took one month to cycle the tank.

2.5 months ago, the tank was cycled with the RCS, so I took out the shrimps and added my first puffer fish. This little fellow ate very little, but i think its bioload was still a lot more than the shrimps. Over the course of 2.5 months, it started to eat more and more because it got comfortable with me and stopped hiding. He is eating properly now. It also grew half an inch and got a little fatter, so all of these increase bioload factors put the tank on a long mini cycle. I used to change the water every day, but now its every 2-3 days. Its progress, but the progress is not fast enough. I'm hoping that the Safestart will help establish my tank.

Honestly, I can't think of any other reason why its not cycled by this point. The tank is well oxygenated with high flow rate and constant temp of 78 degree F. First tanks often come with mistakes, so I wish I did the fishless cycle. I did fishless cycle with all my other tanks with no problems. I highly recommend fishless cycle for everyone because any amount of ammonia and nitrite will cause irreversible internal damage to your fish.


9/9/11 PM: 0.50 - 0.75 Ammonia; 0 NirIte
Just fed my puff a lot of food, so it should produce a lot of waste. Then threw in Safestart
9/10/11 AM: ~0.75 Ammonia; < 0.25 Nitrite; < 5.0 Nitrate
I'm really surprised to see the Ammonia not going up after a large feeding. I did a 75% water change to keep ammonia a little lower for my fish.
9/10/11 PM: <0.25 Ammonia; 0.00 Nitrite; <5.0 NitrAte
I did not feed my fish today because he is suppose to eat every other day. It shouldn't stop him from producing waste though.

I'm just going to keep my patience. Reviews states that it works 1-2 weeks after dosing tanks and do pwc to keep low ammonia and NitrIte. Although this isn't the exact formula as Dr. Tim's One & Only Nitrifying bacteria, it should be somewhat close.

Open for discussions.

9/11/11 AM: ~0.25 Ammonia; <0.25 NitrIte; <5.0 NitrAte
I just fed my fish a chunk of raw shrimp. No other variable change.

I trust any product made my Dr. Tim. I can only think of one thing working against me: a bad batch of bacteria. I have been keeping in mind to not touch my sand because there should be some bacteria on the surface. I want every to work along with me and not against me.




My other tanks have similar setups. 1 fish per tank with Aquaclear powerhead/Quick Filter & Eclipse filter. No live plants or any tank mates for those tanks. I do not turn on the light for those tanks at all. Temp are all around 76-78F. Those fish are juvenile and do not eat as much as the fish in my 29g. Before I did my weekly 50% pwc today, those tanks measure 0 NitrIte and Ammonia. Nitrate was all ~5.0

 

[jetajockey]

The chlorine thing is a non-issue. It's all about concentration, a low concentration of chlorinated top water is not going to instantly nuke the bacteria, so even if it does take a few seconds to neutralize, it's not going to wipe out the bacterial colony.

IIRC from speaking with the tetra reps the idea is to run safestart for a week without water changes to allow the bacteria to colonize.

Either way, it seems like you have an underlying issue going on, I wouldn't be so quick to say that the product doesn't work. Like I mentioned in another thread, most people that use these products often have a some other issue going on leading up to the addition of a bacteria additive, so sometimes it is used with unrealistic expectations.

If my fish dies tonight, I will hate this product forever and will give it bad reviews wherever I go. I just can't keep up with the 60-90% water changes every 2-3 days.

If your fish dies tonight, I would first blame the constant level of ammonia in the tank that it was subjected to, not the bacteria additive.

 

[alex07]

So you don't vacuum the sand?