Need help identifying this...

[Madame_X]

My second gold ram is now experiencing the same respiratory distress that the first one showed. I don't know what to do.

I had pulled the sick ram out and put him into a hospital tank. The remaining three would periodically scratch in the gravel but aside from that, showed no other signs of illness. I thought I had it pinned down to a gill parasite and treated the tank they were in with Jungle Parasite Clear. They stopped scratching so I thought they were okay and I moved them into my 30 gallon planted, the only other inhabitant being a bristle nose pleco. Things have been GREAT for almost a week. They were playing together, having a good old time, no problems.

Since I heard that rams demand extremely clean water, I did a 10% water change on that tank on Wednesday. I used dechlorinator (Stress Coat) and let the water sit for several hours before adding it. I mixed the same percentage of [acronym:d61bfa71ba="Reverse osmosis"]RO[/acronym:d61bfa71ba] I had when I set up the tank and checked to [acronym:d61bfa71ba="Powerhead"]PH[/acronym:d61bfa71ba] to make certain it was close to the tank water. Everything seemed fine.

*sigh*

Last night, I noticed the remaining gold ram was hiding. I found him hiding in a cave under some driftwood, showing the same respiratory distress the first one had before he got really weak. This morning, he was in the same spot, still breathing hard, and his eyes were starting to look the same as other ram who died (not popped out but sort of like a deer in the headlights kinda look).

I've also noticed some behaviors in my pleco that I thought might be odd but this is my first pleco so I can't be sure. He keeps hiding behind the filter intake, not moving around the tank nearly as much as he initially did but he was eating this morning so I don't know.

I'm so sad to be losing the gold rams but I will be heartbroken if I lose the whole tank to this. I'm really attached to the Bolivian rams! There are no white spots on the fish, but could this be ich? The symptoms are the same as the gill parasite minus the white spots, but that's why I thought gill parasite originally.

If its ich, how can I treat this safely for the pleco? Also, the tank is heavily planted and while the fish are my first priority, I'd like to not kill my plants if possible.

Please share your experiences... I need to figure this out before I lose them all.

[Madame_X]

By the way, 0 ammonia/0 nitrites/trace of nitrates in the water.

[Allivymar]

It certainly can be ich; sometimes it infests the gills and you just dont see the obvious spots. If you've never read Peter's Ich Notes, here's the link: http://www.caloriesperhour.com/fish/notes_ich.html . It is a great site all about ich, its cycle and treatments.

I had ich in my angel/loach/plec tank (the loaches were the only ones with obvious signs). I treated it very successfully with the high temp/salt treatment.

If youe interested in going that route, let me explain:

Temps must be over 86f. Ich can't survive at temps much higher then that. Make sure ALL the fish can handle temps at the end of the range; my guys could. Raise it a degree every 12 hrs (you want to raise it fairly quickly, as ich multiplies fast at higher temps below 86f, yet not too quickly as you don't want to stress the fish out).

The second half of the treatment is salt; it messes with the ich's osmosis. You want to raise salt levels to at least 2 [acronym:1486d550bf="Parts per Million"]ppm[/acronym:1486d550bf] higher then what the tank is normally at. I don't normally add salt so my tank level of salt is 0ppm. I actually raised it to 3 [acronym:1486d550bf="Parts per Million"]ppm[/acronym:1486d550bf] using plain old aquarium salt. It takes approximately 7.6 grams of salt per gallon to raise it to the levelof 2ppm, or about 1 tsp less then a 1/4 cup for 10g. HOWEVER, the actual chloride content in each sample of salt is different. I went and bought a SeaTest hydrometer to test my water and know exactly what the levels were. Cost me about $11. You'll need a hydrometer (if you go this route) that is able to read LOW levels of salt; most [acronym:1486d550bf="Saltwater"]SW[/acronym:1486d550bf] hydrometers start at a higher level as [acronym:1486d550bf="Saltwater"]SW[/acronym:1486d550bf] tanks require much more salt.

I don't know how the plants will handle the temps and salt tho.

Just for my own clarification, I have never used Jungle Parasite Clear; is it supposed to address ich as well? I'm unsure.

[shawmutt]

I used the website allivymar was talking about, and used just half doses of malachite green and kept the temp around 80 (it was usually at 75). Unfortunately, because my cardinals were so shy, I caught it at a late stage and all but one died. However, the rest of my tank inhabitants made it through ok, so I'm assuming it worked.

[acronym:807a2326c2="In my opinion"]IMO[/acronym:807a2326c2], fish like rams, discus, cardinals, and other black water fish need very pure water, and for this reason I used all distilled water or r/o water with r/o right added. The water quality in my area isn't very good, and I was worried that I would be introducing local contaminants that may be harming my fish. Adding the r/o right to the pure water ensured that they were getting the proper minerals in the water. I also used an additive called Black Water Extract from tetra. It was supposed to add other necessary nutrients to the water. [acronym:807a2326c2="Hope this helps (or) Happy to help"]HTH[/acronym:807a2326c2]!

[Allivymar]

Duh. I should have mentioned in the salt part of that I raised it to 3 [acronym:d016f8f113="Parts per Million"]ppm[/acronym:d016f8f113] salt over 3 days and not all at once.

I'm actually dealing with ich yet again; of the 2 surviving cardinals I got a week ago (I really need to find a place that does not get their cardinals and neons from the east coast suppliers) one has a few spots of ich. Of course they are in the QT tank with otos and a Bamboo shrimp; I CAN'T use most ich meds as it will kill the shrimp, and I CAN'T do the salt tx as the cardinals can't take it. I'm hoping high temps will be enough; I have my doubts tho *sigh*

[Madame_X]

I'm so frustrated, I just don't know what to do. Pleco looks fine (actively chewing on some driftwood right now), Bolivian rams seem fine. The poor little goldie is just hanging out at the bottom of the tank panting.

I don't know if I should take him out and leave the tank be, treat the whole tank (and for WHAT?). I mean, shouldn't SOME of my fish have ich spots if its ich?

The Bolivians are starting to pick on him a little. I thought about putting the Parasite Clear tabs in to see if it helps (and no, Alli, they don't treat ich) but I'm afraid if I do and I find out it IS ich, I won't be able to use ich med without taking out the praziquantel from the Parasite Clear.

I'm thinking of euthanizing the goldie at this point, he looks so bad. His gills are swollen and I just don't have much hope of saving him after what happened to the other one.

I just put the Parasite Clear in the tank. I guess I'll see if anything changes. It didn't hurt anything last time (there was no stress from the fish at all). The Bolivians actually swim in the bubbles from the fizz (which is good). If there isn't a change in the gold ram fairly soon (morning?) I'll probably take him out and put him to sleep. Then I'll decide what to do with the rest of the tank.

This sucks...

[Madame_X]

I had to put an end to the little ram's suffering. I walked by the tank and he was stuck to the intake. I decided it was more humane to put him down rather than make him suffer through ineffective treatments the way the last one did.

He was just too far gone. There would have been permanent gill damage. I just don't think he would have recovered.

I used the alcohol method. For the record, its not as humane as I have read (he did not just "go to sleep").

I feel terrible now even though I think it was the right thing to do.

[Allivymar]

****, I'm sorry hon Hard enough to lose a fish; harder when the decision to release it is yours.

Just for future reference, pick up some clove oil at a health store. That will anesthesize the fish before the alcohol takes effect so he/she doesn't suffer. I actually have some in the house for toothaches (works for that too!).

[Madame_X]

Will do, Alli... thanks for the tip.

I just fed my Bolivians and they ate ravenously. Gave me some hope that maybe they'll get through this.