newbie with oddly acting fish needing advice please - Aquarium Advice

bumblebean · 06-01-2003, 12:56 PM

I think its possible that in my desire to do things right, I might have done too much or missed some important details.
I have a two week old 50 gallon tank containing three lionheads. They are sitting in plants hiding and not eating much.
Here are the details and history:
Currently there are three cheapo filters running while I await a magnum 350. In addition, there is a 12" airstone and a bubbler.
Initially, with no clear directions, I placed one fish into the aquarium treated with Chlor out. The next day, I added another. Both fish seemed happy. Two days later I added three more lionheads. One day later the water turned cloudy. I attempted to fix this using a clarifyer to no avail. It is at this point where fish #1 died. I read a book that instructed me to stop feeding for three days after changing out 1/3 of the water which I did. Three days later my original two fish were hiding in plants and would not come out for food. I fed and then elected to leave the tank pretty much unfed for an additional three days. I then fed and left the tank for two days. At the end of the two days the original fish who had been hiding were dead. I changed out 1/3 of the water and added a product called NovAqua. I noted then that all three of the remaining fish were hiding and rarely moving to eat. I took water tests and found everything to be normal except ph which was at 9.0. Since I had nothing to treat this with, I added a product which claims to deal with ph problems as well as other things called easybalance. When this did nothing to help, I changed out 1/4 of the water, noted a brief time of fish activity and eating, and now they are all hiding again.
I have read as much as possible on what could be wrong and see that my fish are exhibiting stress (possibly related to the temperature of the water changes? not that great a difference tho)
I feed fish flakes and also those shrimp pellets.
I would be grateful for any suggestions
thank you

bumblebean · 06-01-2003, 07:13 PM

Ok.... update: I went to my local pond store and spoke to the ppl there. They don't know much about lionheads but do know koi and goldfish. They indicated that another fish or two whom are not aggressive yet not timid might give the lionheads some security. We selected two very small koi out of a batch of bigger characters and decided that these two might do it. One is a shiro becco, and the other is a sanke mutt with some metallic in it. They also indicated that my high ph problems could be remedied with a couple of tablespoons of vinegar. I experimented doing this on another tank that has no fish and it did work!
The koi seem curious about their surroundings yet shy around the lionheads. The lionheads can't hide very well because the koi keep moving and they are a bit curious about them also.
Crossing my fingers here

another clumbsy newbie

ConanTheLibraia · 06-01-2003, 10:09 PM

I dont think I could give you good advice about this but thats an original tank setup. (meant it in a good way.)

bumblebean · 06-01-2003, 10:59 PM

knock on airstone.......seems to be working

i3k · 06-06-2003, 12:33 AM

I think the problem is that you didnt let the tank cycle. Your fish might also have been shocked when you introduced them to the tank. You should always let a new tank cycle for about 4-6 weeks before adding fish to it. You can start out with some small inexpensive fish until the tank is done cycling...then you can add more expensive fish of your choice. Also, when adding fish from a fish store...I would suggest letting the bag with the fish float in the aquarium on top for about 20 minutes. After 20 minutes, add half a cup of the aquarium water into the bag with the fish and let the bag float for about 10 more minutes...add another half a cup of the tank water into the bag and let it float for another 5 minutes. You can then safely release the fish into the tank...remember not pour the water in the bag into your aquarium...use a small net instead to transfer the fish.

CRaZeeeBiTcHisH · 06-06-2003, 05:15 AM

you do not have to cycle a tank without fish!! there is absolutely no scientific basis for doing that -- if you remove any chlorine, chloramines and such, you can acclimate and add fish--of course, common sense should tell you that if you must have a particular temp you may need to let your water heat, but that won't take weeks!-ALTHOUGH you will need to cycle your tank either with fish or through 'fishless' cycling (which does not imply an empty tank running unattended) all the while monitoring your chemistry closely to avoid fishy catastrophes!

bumblebean · 06-06-2003, 11:19 AM

thank you

well update is that in my opinion...if a fish seems scared and hiding and isnt hiding because thats what that kind of fish does, it could scare itself to death. Thats what has happened (I think) with all but the last lionhead. The tank has been cycling now for three weeks but to be honest, while all other parameters have been in the normal range, the ph was very close to 9.0 or maybe higher. Because I normally do ponds, I relied on the advisement of my pond pros on the ph and added teaspoon by teaspoon of cider vinegar to the water until i got it to almost neutral. I also added salt until it is at the .12 level which is the level I am comfortable with my pond. Could that high ph have caused the deaths of those lionheads?
I have added two red capped orandas who follow the koi about the tank like their long lost mother (kinda funny).
I have a question now.
My magnum 350 just arrived in the mail. The instructions say not to remove the existing filters until it has matured. My existing filters are a total of three and line the back of the aquarium and unless I put this thing in the front, there is no added room for it. Putting it in the front means having the lid open and exposed to a very curious cat. The existing filters are: a tiny 10 gallon aqua tech that has been cycling for 2 weeks (changed the material after a week and should have left it alone), an aqua tech for 30-50 gallon aquariums that has been cycling for 1.5 weeks, and a whisper 50 gallons that has been cycling for a week. What do I remove and what do I leave? The whisper is the one I intend to keep in the tank and pair with the magnum. The other two will go back to a little ten gallon quarantine tank.
Thank you for all of your generous help!
Karen

mendhigirl · 06-06-2003, 09:23 PM

If you have to move your existing filters,can you put the used filter media in the new filter?To sort of 'seed' the new filter media with your good bacteria?
I have a question...won't koi get WAY too big for a 55g? I have 3 orandas in a 40g,and they are starting to look crowded.

BTW,I LOVE the substrate!!My LFS told me not to use anything plastic,as it would float.

Why do I listen??

bumblebean · 06-06-2003, 09:43 PM

Its a great idea but the magnum is canister and the others are hang ons. I'm still pondering on the idea of seeding it tho as it really sounds good! I believe that the aquarium is done with its cycling as the water is now perfectly clear and levels have calmed down to normal.
LOL I have koi everywhere it seems

My outdoor pond is waiting for a good cleaning and in the fall this little guy as well as those in the quarantine tank in the garage will go into the pond. By that time they will not be kingfisher bait (larger than 5 inches).
Thanks!

bumblebean · 06-07-2003, 11:21 PM

Ok I did some work on the plastic cover and widened the openings. I removed the smallest of the filters and added the magnum with the two remaining.
This lionhead is still giving me fits. Last night I thought for sure it was going to die. It hung mid water head down doing a helicopter number and after about three hours I felt exhausted for it! To my surprise it is still alive. Do they get gas? It hides under things to offset it's bouyancy it seems. I am getting attached to this little fish and sure would like to understand him/her.

06-01-2003, 10:09 PM	#3
ConanTheLibraia Aquarium Advice FINatic Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: D.C. Posts: 539 Images: 3	I dont think I could give you good advice about this but thats an original tank setup. (meant it in a good way.) __________________ My fish will kick your fishes butt

06-06-2003, 05:15 AM	#6
CRaZeeeBiTcHisH Aquarium Advice Freak Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 353	you do not have to cycle a tank without fish!! there is absolutely no scientific basis for doing that -- if you remove any chlorine, chloramines and such, you can acclimate and add fish--of course, common sense should tell you that if you must have a particular temp you may need to let your water heat, but that won't take weeks!-ALTHOUGH you will need to cycle your tank either with fish or through 'fishless' cycling (which does not imply an empty tank running unattended) all the while monitoring your chemistry closely to avoid fishy catastrophes! __________________ Live life like there is no tomorrow--there may not be....

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06-01-2003, 12:56 PM	#1
bumblebean Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: washington state Posts: 29 Images: 10	newbie with oddly acting fish needing advice please I think its possible that in my desire to do things right, I might have done too much or missed some important details. I have a two week old 50 gallon tank containing three lionheads. They are sitting in plants hiding and not eating much. Here are the details and history: Currently there are three cheapo filters running while I await a magnum 350. In addition, there is a 12" airstone and a bubbler. Initially, with no clear directions, I placed one fish into the aquarium treated with Chlor out. The next day, I added another. Both fish seemed happy. Two days later I added three more lionheads. One day later the water turned cloudy. I attempted to fix this using a clarifyer to no avail. It is at this point where fish #1 died. I read a book that instructed me to stop feeding for three days after changing out 1/3 of the water which I did. Three days later my original two fish were hiding in plants and would not come out for food. I fed and then elected to leave the tank pretty much unfed for an additional three days. I then fed and left the tank for two days. At the end of the two days the original fish who had been hiding were dead. I changed out 1/3 of the water and added a product called NovAqua. I noted then that all three of the remaining fish were hiding and rarely moving to eat. I took water tests and found everything to be normal except ph which was at 9.0. Since I had nothing to treat this with, I added a product which claims to deal with ph problems as well as other things called easybalance. When this did nothing to help, I changed out 1/4 of the water, noted a brief time of fish activity and eating, and now they are all hiding again. I have read as much as possible on what could be wrong and see that my fish are exhibiting stress (possibly related to the temperature of the water changes? not that great a difference tho) I feed fish flakes and also those shrimp pellets. I would be grateful for any suggestions thank you

06-01-2003, 07:13 PM	#2
bumblebean Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: washington state Posts: 29 Images: 10	Ok.... update: I went to my local pond store and spoke to the ppl there. They don't know much about lionheads but do know koi and goldfish. They indicated that another fish or two whom are not aggressive yet not timid might give the lionheads some security. We selected two very small koi out of a batch of bigger characters and decided that these two might do it. One is a shiro becco, and the other is a sanke mutt with some metallic in it. They also indicated that my high ph problems could be remedied with a couple of tablespoons of vinegar. I experimented doing this on another tank that has no fish and it did work! The koi seem curious about their surroundings yet shy around the lionheads. The lionheads can't hide very well because the koi keep moving and they are a bit curious about them also. Crossing my fingers here another clumbsy newbie

06-01-2003, 10:59 PM	#4
bumblebean Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: washington state Posts: 29 Images: 10	knock on airstone.......seems to be working

06-06-2003, 12:33 AM	#5
i3k Aquarium Advice Freak Join Date: May 2003 Location: California Posts: 237 Images: 13	I think the problem is that you didnt let the tank cycle. Your fish might also have been shocked when you introduced them to the tank. You should always let a new tank cycle for about 4-6 weeks before adding fish to it. You can start out with some small inexpensive fish until the tank is done cycling...then you can add more expensive fish of your choice. Also, when adding fish from a fish store...I would suggest letting the bag with the fish float in the aquarium on top for about 20 minutes. After 20 minutes, add half a cup of the aquarium water into the bag with the fish and let the bag float for about 10 more minutes...add another half a cup of the tank water into the bag and let it float for another 5 minutes. You can then safely release the fish into the tank...remember not pour the water in the bag into your aquarium...use a small net instead to transfer the fish.

06-06-2003, 11:19 AM	#7
bumblebean Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: washington state Posts: 29 Images: 10	thank you well update is that in my opinion...if a fish seems scared and hiding and isnt hiding because thats what that kind of fish does, it could scare itself to death. Thats what has happened (I think) with all but the last lionhead. The tank has been cycling now for three weeks but to be honest, while all other parameters have been in the normal range, the ph was very close to 9.0 or maybe higher. Because I normally do ponds, I relied on the advisement of my pond pros on the ph and added teaspoon by teaspoon of cider vinegar to the water until i got it to almost neutral. I also added salt until it is at the .12 level which is the level I am comfortable with my pond. Could that high ph have caused the deaths of those lionheads? I have added two red capped orandas who follow the koi about the tank like their long lost mother (kinda funny). I have a question now. My magnum 350 just arrived in the mail. The instructions say not to remove the existing filters until it has matured. My existing filters are a total of three and line the back of the aquarium and unless I put this thing in the front, there is no added room for it. Putting it in the front means having the lid open and exposed to a very curious cat. The existing filters are: a tiny 10 gallon aqua tech that has been cycling for 2 weeks (changed the material after a week and should have left it alone), an aqua tech for 30-50 gallon aquariums that has been cycling for 1.5 weeks, and a whisper 50 gallons that has been cycling for a week. What do I remove and what do I leave? The whisper is the one I intend to keep in the tank and pair with the magnum. The other two will go back to a little ten gallon quarantine tank. Thank you for all of your generous help! Karen

06-06-2003, 09:23 PM	#8
mendhigirl Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: May 2003 Location: palm beach FL Posts: 48	If you have to move your existing filters,can you put the used filter media in the new filter?To sort of 'seed' the new filter media with your good bacteria? I have a question...won't koi get WAY too big for a 55g? I have 3 orandas in a 40g,and they are starting to look crowded. BTW,I LOVE the substrate!!My LFS told me not to use anything plastic,as it would float. Why do I listen??

06-06-2003, 09:43 PM	#9
bumblebean Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: washington state Posts: 29 Images: 10	Its a great idea but the magnum is canister and the others are hang ons. I'm still pondering on the idea of seeding it tho as it really sounds good! I believe that the aquarium is done with its cycling as the water is now perfectly clear and levels have calmed down to normal. LOL I have koi everywhere it seems My outdoor pond is waiting for a good cleaning and in the fall this little guy as well as those in the quarantine tank in the garage will go into the pond. By that time they will not be kingfisher bait (larger than 5 inches). Thanks!

06-07-2003, 11:21 PM	#10
bumblebean Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: washington state Posts: 29 Images: 10	Ok I did some work on the plastic cover and widened the openings. I removed the smallest of the filters and added the magnum with the two remaining. This lionhead is still giving me fits. Last night I thought for sure it was going to die. It hung mid water head down doing a helicopter number and after about three hours I felt exhausted for it! To my surprise it is still alive. Do they get gas? It hides under things to offset it's bouyancy it seems. I am getting attached to this little fish and sure would like to understand him/her.