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Old 12-20-2006, 01:41 AM   #61
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It is important to note that there are other byproducts of fish metabolism that are not removed by filtration, no matter how great the filter or media...and apart from dosing in certain minerals, water in a non-changed tank will be lacking those until a PWC is done.

If you question this, do an experiment with two identical tanks, filtered identically, with a dozen small fry (say oscars, discus, loaches, etc)...have everything identical...feeding times, amounts, types...temperature, filtration rates and media (and give each tank filter fresh activated carbon every 5 days), but change 25% of one tank's water weekly, and 75% of the other tank's water daily....you will see an incredible difference in the fish after 90 days, believe you me.
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Old 12-20-2006, 01:56 AM   #62
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Not a very good comparison.

If you feed an infant child nothing but salad and compare it's growth to that of a child fed a high protein diet the differences will be very large. This does not mean that a vegetarian diet is wrong, just not appropriate for a child.

the same is true with fish, some practices are ok for full grown fish but not juviniles.

I do PWC's every week without fail.

However I do believe that the majority of them are done to maintain the clearness of the tank for my viewing more than the fish's health.

Before people jump on me I'm not saying that you don't have to do PWC's, that's just stupid. Just that we probably over do it so that out tanks look better than nature. This is especially true if your tank only has full grown specimens. If you have young fish then obviously they need more care and supervision.
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:17 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hc8719
10 people floating in a stadium? it'd be real hard run into a giant stadium where we can all float, and i guarentee all my active fish see each other more than several times daily.

try 10 people in a 5 bedroom house, you have enough room, it might be a bit crowded than what you prefer, but your not clinging on for life either
My point is that we are talking about a bigger mini-ecosystem than a room. It's not quite a stadium, but if you care to work out the ratios then you can see a tank is worth several houses. Fish do tend to get around and congregate in their environment, and so they do see each other a lot. People do the same.

My only point every was that the 10 people in one room comparison was not all that great as a tank is bigger than that. A planted tank is more like 10 people in a park - convert the 3d space into a more people friendly 2d space if you like.

I never said anything about it being a bad idea to do water changes, only that it's not quite as bad as 10 people in a small apartment. That's more like 10 goldfish in a bowl, and we know how ofter you'd have to clean and change that

Comparing what we do with fish to what people would expect in life is never going to be very accurate unless we compare to prison or something.

Unless we plan to return the fish to the 'big blue'
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:39 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esra
Not a very good comparison.
You are not, I trust, referring to my post?

Quote:
the same is true with fish, some practices are ok for full grown fish but not juviniles.
...and this has what to do with water-quality?

Quote:
However I do believe that the majority of them are done to maintain the clearness of the tank for my viewing more than the fish's health.
Believe all you like...water clarity and quality are very different...there are chemicals present in the water that you cannot test for that affect your fishes' health.

Quote:
Just that we probably over do it so that out tanks look better than nature.
Again, looks and quality are quite seperate.

Quote:
This is especially true if your tank only has full grown specimens. If you have young fish then obviously they need more care and supervision.
Ah, so older fish, do not require special care? As animals age, their immune systems, etc, degrade...excellent water quality = old fish.
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:12 PM   #65
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Ok.

I decided to do the math on this one.


1 gallon contains 231 cubic inches.

We'll say for the sake of this argument, the average fish is 4 inches. The average person is 5 feet tall (being generous for people, as this will allow more square feet per person)

By ratio, 1in is relative to 1ft, and 1 cu in is relative to 1 cu ft.

We'll say the average 3 br house is 2000 square feet, by 10 feet high living space. Giving us 20,000 cubic feet. with 5 people in the 3 br house, that is 4000 cubic feet per person, or 4000 cubic feet of living space for every 5 feet of people. That is comfortable.

to get a 20,000 cubic inch fish tank, you would need an 86 gallon tank. for 5 four inch fish, or 20 inches of fish, to be comfortable at the human equivalent of 4000 cubic feet of living space.


My 55 gal tank, which would be 12,750 cubic inches, houses a total of 58 inches of fish.

That works out to be 219.83 cubic inches of living space per inch of fish, or 879.31 cubic inches per average four inch fish.

the human equivalent would be a 4396.55 cubic foot house, for 5 people at 5 foot each...making that house about 439.65 square feet with 10 foot ceilings. That is about half the size of a 1 br apartment, which average 800 sq ft. Therefore, living in a fishtank is equivalent to about 8-10 SHORT people living in an 800 sq foot house with 10 foot ceilings.


And i made my comparison without doing any math until now. I'd say I was spot on. Not to mention humans can leave their houses. fish can't.
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Old 12-20-2006, 03:25 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyCatsDrool
Ok.

I decided to do the math on this one.


1 gallon contains 231 cubic inches.

We'll say for the sake of this argument, the average fish is 4 inches. The average person is 5 feet tall (being generous for people, as this will allow more square feet per person)

By ratio, 1in is relative to 1ft, and 1 cu in is relative to 1 cu ft.

We'll say the average 3 br house is 2000 square feet, by 10 feet high living space. Giving us 20,000 cubic feet. with 5 people in the 3 br house, that is 4000 cubic feet per person, or 4000 cubic feet of living space for every 5 feet of people. That is comfortable.

to get a 20,000 cubic inch fish tank, you would need an 86 gallon tank. for 5 four inch fish, or 20 inches of fish, to be comfortable at the human equivalent of 4000 cubic feet of living space.


My 55 gal tank, which would be 12,750 cubic inches, houses a total of 58 inches of fish.

That works out to be 219.83 cubic inches of living space per inch of fish, or 879.31 cubic inches per average four inch fish.

the human equivalent would be a 4396.55 cubic foot house, for 5 people at 5 foot each...making that house about 439.65 square feet with 10 foot ceilings. That is about half the size of a 1 br apartment, which average 800 sq ft. Therefore, living in a fishtank is equivalent to about 8-10 SHORT people living in an 800 sq foot house with 10 foot ceilings.


And i made my comparison without doing any math until now. I'd say I was spot on. Not to mention humans can leave their houses. fish can't.
Quite interesting. All I can say is, it's something that can really make a person think.

Also, fish may not be able leave the tank, but some can live in the upper parts of the tank, where we can't live on the 10 ft. ceiling of the house if it's a single level house. Also, we have sewer systems, the fish have us to depend on to be the sewer system. And if we are lacking there, shame on us.
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Old 12-20-2006, 07:47 PM   #67
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and his rational was that we are too meticulous by vacuuming gravel weekly, because there is no comparison between cramming 55 inches of fish into a 55 gallon tank and 8-10 humans living in a one bedroom apartment.

gravel vacuuming and water changes are the equivalent of our sewage and trash removal.
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:06 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyCatsDrool
gravel vacuuming and water changes are the equivalent of our sewage and trash removal.
Precisely!
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Old 12-21-2006, 05:55 AM   #69
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I hope nobody thinks I'm against cleaning the tank. Certainly not my view at all. I just think comparing fish to people is not productive. Unless we would like the idea of keeping captive slaves in little prisons. Fish are fish, not people, and they thrive in relatively cramped conditions that would drive people completely mad.

In any case, there are definite problems with the comparisons here. Simple ratios aren't going to apply well here when comparing linear and cubic measurements. Try working out the above math only using inches for example...

Let's face it. If you actually apply simple math and the inch/gallon rule and treat people like fish, then people would be living in a 70 gallon fish tank

So maybe were talking apples and oranges

BTW, this is exactly why the inch gallon rule does not work. It makes no adjustment for the volume of a fish which does not increase in a linear fashion as the length does...
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