Opinions/Experience-Seachem Purigen/Carbon Alternatives

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I am not debating the effectiveness of carbon, nor that changing it out should (and in my home does not) disrupt my cycle as it is only a part of the established bacteria. But if the same results as carbon can be achieved through a method that less often involves disrupting the equipment, then it's much easier to fully alternate bio disruptions. Changing carbon every two weeks means when time comes for other maintenance, you are only a week out from another disruption. I just can't view progress and less disruption as a bad thing.

With ya there. That's why I switched. With carbon you are going through fairly rapid changes in absorption efficiency. From pulling 'everything' out one day to it being essentially bio-media a week or two later I preferred to minimize that variation as well as the number of times I have to change the media.

Doesn't mean other things don't work too, obviously, but it works for me.
 
You provided a lot if good information LibertyBelle, going to give it a go.

I think best to only try in one tank. Observe the difference. Consider I use my mini sponge filters to cycle QT tanks, a simple experiment of its risk to beni-bac could be concluded by tossing a seeded one into an empty QT with ammonia and see if it still processes out. Now to decide which tank to try it on. I have a piece of newer driftwood that seriously leeches in my 55 so could expect a visible change there, but that wouldn't allow me to truly establish the life expectancy because the tannins will probably wipe it out faster. I think I will try it with one of the angels, decent bio load there because they are heavy eaters, strong cycle because the current filter is older (recently replaced on 2 other tanks), and decently but not heavily planted so I can really get a look at plant effect with out worrying about wiping out the large plant population in other tanks.
 
You provided a lot if good information LibertyBelle, going to give it a go.

I think best to only try in one tank. Observe the difference. Consider I use my mini sponge filters to cycle QT tanks, a simple experiment of its risk to beni-bac could be concluded by tossing a seeded one into an empty QT with ammonia and see if it still processes out. Now to decide which tank to try it on. I have a piece of newer driftwood that seriously leeches in my 55 so could expect a visible change there, but that wouldn't allow me to truly establish the life expectancy because the tannins will probably wipe it out faster. I think I will try it with one of the angels, decent bio load there because they are heavy eaters, strong cycle because the current filter is older (recently replaced on 2 other tanks), and decently but not heavily planted so I can really get a look at plant effect with out worrying about wiping out the large plant population in other tanks.

Nothing beats starting small and seeing how it works in your specific system. Side note that might be helpful to you later... While tannins will be absorbed and discolor the beads you can still regenerate the beads like normal. Apparently the beads will stay more discolored than normal but the seachem people say it will still absorb organics fine after that. Just makes it a little harder to 'see' when it needs to be replaced. I guess you could test that for yourself if you end up trying it.

I guess if you have a ton of fast growing leaf material and are fighting to keep enough nitrogen in the tank purigen might cause that to be limited? In my experience though purigen just slows the nitrate creep way down so original level of nitrates would still be available to plants. I wouldn't know if there is any effect on a more high tech tank, or if that's relevant you. Mine has quite a few plants but they are all low light and relatively slow growers.
 
No I am very low tech. T8 lighting, primarily leaf feeders, low light, light to moderately planted. Liquid ferts and root tabs near root feeders. No CO2. Right now I maintain the plants more for the added benefit to the fish. So as long as enough nutrients remain for the plants to stay alive I am good. I can always add more nutrients if I notice a deficiency but am overall liking the Purigen. Without high light and CO2, nutrient need isn't too high so may not even cause issues.
 
No I am very low tech. T8 lighting, primarily leaf feeders, low light, light to moderately planted. Liquid ferts and root tabs near root feeders. No CO2. Right now I maintain the plants more for the added benefit to the fish. So as long as enough nutrients remain for the plants to stay alive I am good. I can always add more nutrients if I notice a deficiency but am overall liking the Purigen. Without high light and CO2, nutrient need isn't too high so may not even cause issues.

That's me too. Regular but low lever fertilization because the light is so low my plants don't need very much. They look good and I don't have to do very much which makes everyone happy. The only nutrient that purigen would effect is the nitrogen since it specifically absorbs the organics. So maybe keep an eye on your nitrates and look out for nitrogen deficiencies just in case. Never a problem in my situation and I've been running purigen for a while.

I still keep carbon around and I've read some articles suggesting running carbon every once in a while since it absorbs more indiscriminately... in case there is anything weird built up in your water supply. Maybe I should take that under consideration since it's been ages since my tank has seen carbon... I guess my fish would probably tell me pretty quick if something weird was going on with my water supply.
 
I think you may have misinterpreted my comment. :( I was by no means saying that looking for alternatives or different was being lazy. In fact, I wasn't calling you lazy at all. I only used the term because it was said in another post in this thread. There is no doubt and there is plenty of evidence that if you take a closed fish system and do nothing to it, it will eventually implode because there needs to be some regenerative measures to keep it "sound". Unless you have an open system where new water is being brought in and old water is being removed, you need to address conditions in your tank. You cannot ignore this. The frequency is always situational. There are some generic guidelines or routines that make these things habitual. That's all I was saying.

As for the dust argument, it's older than the hills. :facepalm:I heard it when all my hair wasn't grey. LOL Old news to a new generation. ;) Think about this, HITH is most commonly found in fish that either create foul water quickly or extremely acidic water rapidly. Discus, Angels, Oscars, larger Cichlids, etc. But yet all fish have the same lateral line (which is the area most effected after the initial holes) so why don't all the other fish "catch" this condition? Why can you expose a tank of 100 neon tetras, for example, in a small tank with unwashed carbon in the filter, and they don't come down with HITH? They might come down with some other stress related disease but not HITH. See my point? Carbon or it's dust is not the cause. There is just too much evidence to disprove it. If carbon dust were the problem, then dust from the gravel would also, or from any granular product that you purchase. Don't talk to fellow hobbyists about this, talk to the scientists that are trying to find the cause. They haven't been able to prove carbon is the cause either. They even point towards improper keeping of the fish which supresses the fish's immune system as a major factor. Whether it's the vitamin deficiency caused by the diet or the parasite wrecking havoc on the organs is still up for debate but the bottom line is that the fish in clean tanks don't get HITH while fish in dirty tanks do. I have discussed this point with veterinarians and ichthyologists at length. The answer I got was that if the carbon was the cause, it would cause it in both clean and dirty tanks. You just don't see HITH in clean tanks. Feel free to disagree but I'd bet if someone with a fish with HITH were to have a gaschromatigraph done on their "clean" water, they would see that it isn't as clean as they thought.:whistle: ( I had this done at the U of Miami school of marine science when they were testing out their new equipment. It's nice when you have friends in high places. ;) And please don't take this as bragging as I'm not. My eyes were opened to a bunch of things I thought were one thing then later proved to be another. It's a very expensive testing method :blink:) The point is that the reason their is no concrete reason for HITH is because it seems to be caused by multiple situations and that these different situations together are causing the fish to develop the condition. If science could cure AIDs, why can it not cure HITH? ( Sorry, that's an old question we used to ask in the pet shop.:oops:)

As for changing carbon every 2 weeks, why? That says to me that you are either not using enough or you are wasting it. I changed mine monthly at best. Granted, that was back in the day when we didn;t have just HOBs with filter cartridges with minimal amounts of the carbon in them that it needed cleaning so often. If this is your situation, get a bag and fill with carbon and let it sit behind your filter cartridge. If you are not sure you need to change your carbon, you can run this little test: put some methyline blue or other colored medication in some water and pour it through your carbon bag. If it comes out clear on the other side, your carbon is still good. Don't change it ;) As a fish breeder, I am using M. Blue on my Angelfish eggs. I use a bag with 3 teaspoons of carbon in it to remove the blue once the eggs hatch. It takes that bag about 18 hours in 10 gals of water to collect up all the blue. In my gallon jars, the bag takes about 4-6 hours. I use the same bag multiple times so I know when the blue doesn't go away in these time frames, I know I need to change it.

Lastly, I too took a break from fish keeping and recently got back into it. It's a new and strange world for sure. (Thankfully, I still have friends that are still in the pet business so I have people I know and trust.) But the internet unfortunately, is about the least reliable source for information. Anybody with a keyboard can put stuff out onto the internet. I've read through many online forums that were just fraught with misinformation. And many stores are no help either. You should only have heard some of things I have when I talk to the salespeople. :facepalm: My favorite came in a store ( whose name shall remain nameless, but it sounds like Pets heart :whistle:) when the salesgirl told a couple they could put in a new 10 gal tank: 3 neon tetras, 1 pair of Guppies, 3 Platies and a medium Oscar in it that day. ( I was standing next to them when they told her they had just put water in the tank that morning. :eek:) Need I say more? :confused:

So my apologies if you thought I was saying something I wasn't. :flowers: I actually find that us "old timers" tend to have less problems with keeping our tanks as we used to keep them when it was a hobby and more correct info was available. There is no doubt that the business of tropical fish keeping has changed the hobby tremendously. Just remember, new is not necessarily better, just different. ;) I am currently using equipment I stopped using in 1988 and have kept in storage. You can read about my results using this stuff in the "Wigglers at last!!!!" thread in the breeding forum. (y)

Keep us posted on your results please (y)
 
I still keep carbon around and I've read some articles suggesting running carbon every once in a while since it absorbs more indiscriminately... in case there is anything weird built up in your water supply. Maybe I should take that under consideration since it's been ages since my tank has seen carbon... I guess my fish would probably tell me pretty quick if something weird was going on with my water supply.

On occasional carbon use, I could see the value in that. And from what I have read as long as it's kept wet Purigen can be removed and replaced without any harm. And during a change up time this would be easy enough.

And yes I fully believe if we are monitoring our tanks it is the fish more than anything else that gives you a warning of most issues. They seem pretty good at giving you a what's up :) Although I get many false alarms from Al, he is very interactive and has learned that if he "spazzes out" I will come to the tank. Used to check everything only to be dumbfounded when there were no issues, until I linked his behavior once I came over, immediately swimming to his feeding spot and calmly waiting. So now when he spazzes I look to see what the corydoras are doing before getting concerned. I have also learned to sit further from the tank while enjoying my morning coffee.
 
Andy. Thanks you and glad I misinterpreted that, was a little "oh no he didn't!!!" :) sometimes I miss the old times. Good point about other dust particles, failed to consider that. I change out my carbon every two weeks because I was running Aqueons (hate them JMO) and the amount of carbon in those cartridges was quite poor. With the Fluval I go 4 weeks as 2 cups of carbon are used and therefore should have a long enough lifespan on only 55 gallons. The AquaClears I probably could run longer as I am running about a cup worth on only 26 and 32 gallons. About to change up my last Aqueon to another AquaClear on my 29. I haven't tried the M Blue test but can see that being accurate, kind of like putting blue dye in a toilet to check for slow leaks. Carbon used in aquariums (size, type, amount) does lose it's effective power rather quickly though so other than testing it out no way to truely know how long it's lasting. My husband is a chemical engineer so he has explained carbons longevity more fully to me, he is also why I know the leaching thing is completely unfounded. Also very right, internet advice comes with its drawbacks, I found its best to look at multiple opinions and articles to come to a moderately informed answer. Not much different than talking to fellow aquarists in person, just widens the knowledge pool. In the end you have to trust your gut. Sometimes I take the time to read online journal articles, but not as often as I should bc they are just so long. As for your 10 gallon tank oscar antidote, I see that kind of thing often (spend a lot of time in pet stores and LFS lol). Drives me bonkers. I am lucky, I have two LFS I trust, one for the quality and great owners (staff knowledge has declined in what it used to be) and one for the very knowledgeable staff (surprisingly this is a big box P store but at this location they are honest and informed, it's anarchy). I also have a wonderful pond and aquatic plant store that is top notch. Will keep posted, ordered the purigen so I'll see how it goes, going to be a while to do the QT tank test to see how the bio holds out, currently using both of those to QT new plants and Ramshorns. May check out the product you suggested if I am not liking the results but as it is easier to get my hands on, I'd like to start with Purigen first. Very few of SeaChems products have disappointed me.
 
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