pH, KH levels....

[KhanJee]

Hi
I am new to this hobby and having problems with PH, KH levels. Details of my aquarium setup is given in my signatures.

19.11.05
TapWater AquariumWater
PH: 7.5 8.5
KH: 8 8
GH: 10 10
As suggested by the shopkeeper added 25ml of KH/pH minus.

21.11.05
AquariumWater
PH: 8.0
KH: 7
As suggested by the shopkeeper added 25ml of KH/pH minus.

22.11.05
AquariumWater
PH: 8.0
KH: 5

23.11.05
AquariumWater
PH: 8.0
KH: 4

He suggested me to keep KH between 3-5 and PH 6.5 - 7.5
KH is reached to the optimal level but don't know why the PH is not dropping.

Any suggestion

 

[BrianNY]

Welcome to AA Khanjee

The reason you're having a problem lowering the pH is because your tank is extremely well buffered. Adding chemicals to lower the pH and KH will only work for a short period of time. Eventually the buffering capacity forces the pH back up. This artiicle explains in great detail what is occuring in your tank. http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=40

The addition of CO2 to your tank will lower the pH. You've already invested in a substrate heater. I'm assuming you did this to benefit your plants. Most of the plants in your tank require much more lighting to thrive. I'm moving this to the planted tank section. Please read the stickies in that section. They will be very helpful in giving you some more basics in plant requirements.

 

[travis simonson]

Yes, welcome aboard Khanjee

I don't recommend the use of pH lowering buffers like the one your fish store recommended, especially in a planted tank. They are likely to contain high amounts of phosphate which can cause your tank to experience a wicked algal bloom because of the excessive levels of PO4 which they introduce into your water column.

I agree with Brian, CO2 would be just the ticket to lower your pH and provide your plants with an ideal environment in which to thrive.

 

[KhanJee]

@BrianNY
Very useful articles. Heater came with the aquarium and the shopkeeper told me to keep the temp between 25C - 28C, later on heating will be used for the fish. Do you think 40Watts are not enough for my aquarium Check below my aquarium details.

@travis simonson
Right, after reading so many poste/articles and you suggested too pH lowering buffer is not good. I will go for CO2

Almost 3 weeks gone, I have noticed a lot of white color small insects/bacterias on the glass. Small tiny snails are also growing on the plants. Is it normal with newly planted tanks.

 

[travis simonson]

Almost 3 weeks gone, I have noticed a lot of white color small insects/bacterias on the glass. Small tiny snails are also growing on the plants. Is it normal with new planted tanks.

The white bugs (I don't remember their name) are harmless but sort of distracting. Some types of fish will eat them and solve your problem. My African cichlids cleaned them right up when I had them. They almost certainly hitchhiked in on some of your plants. The snails very likely came in this way too. Most snails are actually beneficial to planted tanks but there are a few of the larger (apple snails, mystery snails) that you definitely don't want with your plants. Loaches work very well to reduce snail populations if you don't want them.

 

[KhanJee]

Thankx travis simonson 8)

Today in the morning the readings were
pH: 8.0
KH: 5
You were right the "KH/pH minus" chemical worked temporarily. KH has started increasing while pH always remains stable.

After 1 week of experiment water color was again brown so I changed half of the aquarium water.

Now in the evening readings were
pH: 8.0
KH: 8.0

pH always remains stable only because of using that chemical KH was reduced temporarily.

First thing, I will buy CO2 as the shops open after Christmas. What you suggest now to achieve a pH between 6.5 - 7.5 and KH between 3-5. (Forget that chemical I don't want this temporary solution)

 

[Purrbox]

Leave your KH alone. Since you are planning to be inject CO2, the higher KH is desirable. When you inject CO2 you want a minimum of 3dKH, but with 8dKH you have a much better margin of error. Injecting CO2 will lower you PH. Ideally you want your CO2 levels to be between 25 and 35ppm. Since your KH is 8dKH, if you achieve 30ppm CO2 your PH will be approximately 6.9.

 

[greenmaji]

I suggest 5 watts per gallon.. so around 150 watts is what I would use in your sized aquarium... (you can use more then one heater to get the total wattage)

I can start in on how I disagree with the advise your LFS owner gave you but its been mildly stated here already.. PH/KH buffers cause serious problems with PH stability, as you have discoverd first hand.. and this is LEATHAL to fish.. I understand you were attempting to adjust the PH before the fish were introdused to your aquarium and make it safe for them before hand but I would argue that this is nearly impossible to do with chemicals.. (even in a fish only tank)
I would ask your LFS owner what the PH and KH levels were in his tanks and if he used these products on his store tanks (If he tells you the truth.. his water in his tanks is most certainly tap water 99.98% of the time)
the CO2 will lower your PH... but.. its only for the benifit of your plants... fish need stable PH MUCH more then an exact number.. HTH

 

[KhanJee]

Leave your KH alone. Since you are planning to be inject CO2, the higher KH is desirable. When you inject CO2 you want a minimum of 3dKH, but with 8dKH you have a much better margin of error. Injecting CO2 will lower you PH. Ideally you want your CO2 levels to be between 25 and 35ppm. Since your KH is 8dKH, if you achieve 30ppm CO2 your PH will be approximately 6.9.

With CO2 I will achive pH level 6.5 - 7.5 but still not sure how the KH will reach between 3-5. Can you explain a little more.

 

[KhanJee]

I suggest 5 watts per gallon.. so around 150 watts is what I would use in your sized aquarium... (you can use more then one heater to get the total wattage)

I can start in on how I disagree with the advise your LFS owner gave you but its been mildly stated here already.. PH/KH buffers cause serious problems with PH stability, as you have discoverd first hand.. and this is LEATHAL to fish.. I understand you were attempting to adjust the PH before the fish were introdused to your aquarium and make it safe for them before hand but I would argue that this is nearly impossible to do with chemicals.. (even in a fish only tank)
I would ask your LFS owner what the PH and KH levels were in his tanks and if he used these products on his store tanks (If he tells you the truth.. his water in his tanks is most certainly tap water 99.98% of the time)
the CO2 will lower your PH... but.. its only for the benifit of your plants... fish need stable PH MUCH more then an exact number.. HTH

My heater is already 150Watts. pH is always stable 8.0 but now without chemicals using CO2 I will try to make it stable between 6.5 - 7.5
The only thing I am missing is how to make KH between 3 - 5.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

Don't worry about the kh. As Purrbox said, having the higher kh will give you a much better margin of error. You are just fine.

 

[KhanJee]

I bought the CO2 system (see attached image). First problem was that there was no CO2 generation even after 2nd day. I placed the CO2 cylinder under the aquarium, then I opened it and noticed aquarium water was in the cylinder. Don't know what happed but no CO2 was produced.

Then bought the refill and filled it again and this time I put it on the aquarium roof. 1 day gone and very less bubbles has started coming out with a very long delay.

If the CO2 system works like that then I will never be able to put fish in my aquarium. PH/Kh will never reach within optimum range.

Stable pH is also not possible like that. Lets say when after 1 month I need to refill the cylinder then again it will take time say 2,3 days to start producing CO2. pH will rise again and fish will die.

What to do now

 

[czcz]

I placed the CO2 cylinder under the aquarium, then I opened it and noticed aquarium water was in the cylinder.

If the cylinder was disturbed or the mix was not allowed to cool, this was likely due to back siphon. Putting it over the tank is good, but with a little care it can be easily kept below the tank.

PH/Kh will never reach within optimum range.

Really: trust the great responses you have received before your fish store owner on this. We are just hobbyists helping each other out; no one here is trying to sell you anything.

Stable pH is also not possible like that. Lets say when after 1 month I need to refill the cylinder then again it will take time say 2,3 days to start producing CO2.

Many of us use multiple bottles to avoid this. Each bottle is started a week (or two or three, depending on the output desired and the mixture used) apart, so as one bottle dies or starts up, the other is giving close to peak output.

Shawmutt has an excellent howto. You could use the Nutrafin canister along with a bottle of simalar volume. http://members.myactv.net/~shawmutt/diy_co2.html

A more technical and in-depth paper from J. LeVasseur: http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html

Note that the yeast and sugar recipies discussed in those articles are a replacement for the Nutrafin packets.

pH will rise again and fish will die.

Fluctuating pH does not affect fish nearly as much as fluctuating CO2 affects plants and algae. Swings in KH affect animals, another reason to stop altering KH.

(In regards to plants and KH, it is true that some plants are sensitive to very high KH, but they are the rare exception rather than the rule. As already said the majority of plants in the hobby will do fine in 8dKH. Especially note what Travis posted and check what he is growing with >10dKH in his WWW link.)

Also do not ignore what Brian said about your light levels. Until you increase light, you do not have to worry about CO2. All you need to do is pick appropriate plants for your lighting. http://plantgeek.net/plantguide_list.php?category=1&filter_by=2

If your goal is the optimal tank for any plant you want, the stickies in this forum will lead you there. Good luck.

 

[KhanJee]

Thankx czcz

Very nice information . Thats what I was lacking :? . I will do testing according to your provided links and will be back if I came across any problems.

 

[Zezmo]

It sounds like you are on track to having all the bits in place for a real nice tank. As I read this whole thread I notice you are doing all this to try and reach some "optimal" Ph and Kh. Even adding CO2, you seem like you are doing it to lower the Ph not fertilize the plants. You can affect the Ph with a fermentation based CO2 set-up. But, you cannot control the Ph with it, if anything the nature of fermentaion will cause some Ph fluctuation. To control Ph you are looking at compressed CO2 and Ph controller. But you wouldn't go this route just to optimize Ph for the fish. That is something you do to optimize CO2 for plants.
IMO, you should accept your tap water, as is. And as others have mentioned, just worry about having a stable environment.

 

[KhanJee]

It sounds like you are on track to having all the bits in place for a real nice tank. As I read this whole thread I notice you are doing all this to try and reach some "optimal" Ph and Kh.

Exectly Thats the first tank to learn everything then I have plan to buy a very nice big aquarium with full of plants and less fish.

Even adding CO2, you seem like you are doing it to lower the Ph not fertilize the plants. You can affect the Ph with a fermentation based CO2 set-up. But, you cannot control the Ph with it, if anything the nature of fermentaion will cause some Ph fluctuation. To control Ph you are looking at compressed CO2 and Ph controller.

Yes. tried to lower the pH. Plants were growing well (pH 8.0) even before CO2

But you wouldn't go this route just to optimize Ph for the fish. That is something you do to optimize CO2 for plants.

Means I have to search the fish which lives happily with pH 8.0 and KH between 6-8 :?

IMO, you should accept your tap water, as is. And as others have mentioned, just worry about having a stable environment.

ph/KH are stable since the day 1. Even my water testing/chemicals tried to drop it but its very stable and comes back.

 

[KhanJee]

Stable pH is also not possible like that. Lets say when after 1 month I need to refill the cylinder then again it will take time say 2,3 days to start producing CO2.

Many of us use multiple bottles to avoid this. Each bottle is started a week (or two or three, depending on the output desired and the mixture used) apart, so as one bottle dies or starts up, the other is giving close to peak output.

Shawmutt has an excellent howto. You could use the Nutrafin canister along with a bottle of simalar volume. http://members.myactv.net/~shawmutt/diy_co2.html

A more technical and in-depth paper from J. LeVasseur: http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html

Note that the yeast and sugar recipies discussed in those articles are a replacement for the Nutrafin packets.

pH will rise again and fish will die.

Fluctuating pH does not affect fish nearly as much as fluctuating CO2 affects plants and algae. Swings in KH affect animals, another reason to stop altering KH.

(In regards to plants and KH, it is true that some plants are sensitive to very high KH, but they are the rare exception rather than the rule. As already said the majority of plants in the hobby will do fine in 8dKH. Especially note what Travis posted and check what he is growing with >10dKH in his WWW link.)

Also do not ignore what Brian said about your light levels. Until you increase light, you do not have to worry about CO2. All you need to do is pick appropriate plants for your lighting. http://plantgeek.net/plantguide_list.php?category=1&filter_by=2

If your goal is the optimal tank for any plant you want, the stickies in this forum will lead you there. Good luck.

This weekend finally I am able to buy all the necessary parts to create self made CO2 injector. I made the mixture as suggested in the different articles and my injector started producing bubbles within 5 mins.

Nutrafin CO2 started working after 2-3 days and very less bubbles. This one is amazing and starts working after a short while.

Now I am interesting in knowing, how to create a mixture which lasts longer. In many articles people say self made injector lasts between 7 to 15 days. Is there a way to extend it