Question About NitrAtes

[Twoapennything]

Once again, I feel foolish. I should probably know the answer to this question, but I don't. So, here I am again, asking away!

With fishless cycling, is the goal to have as low nitrAtes as possible? NitrAtes are not considered a desirable thing to have in one's tank, are they? For example, out of the following readings, which would be the healthiest for the fish?

Ammonia 0.0
NitrItes 0.0
Nitrates 0.0
pH 7.8

Ammonia 0.0
NitrItes 0.0
Nitrates 10.0
pH 7.8

I think I've misunderstood something about cycling, so I thought I'd throw this question out.

 

[jestes]

That's a loaded question. First off, the goal of fishless cycling is to get your nitrifying bacteria colony established without having to expose fish to the toxic levels of ammonia/nitrite that build up during "conventional" cycling.

Technically, zero nitrates are wonderful for fish. Nitrate isn't as toxic as ammonia/nitrite, however is does hurt a fish's immune system. You always want zero ammonia/nitrite, but low levels of nitrate are acceptable, although not truly wanted unless it's a planted tank. I'm new to planted tanks, so I'm not going to touch that one.

The answer to your "which one is best" question depends. On a tank with recently added fish in it, your second answer would be healthier for the fish. Not because it has mildly toxic nitrate in the water, but because those readings indicate a cycled tank. Having said that, if you've been adding a sufficient level of ammonia to the tank before you added fish, there's no way you could have the first reading without doing massive water changes all the time.

 

[Twoapennything]

That's a loaded question. First off, the goal of fishless cycling is to get your nitrifying bacteria colony established without having to expose fish to the toxic levels of ammonia/nitrite that build up during "conventional" cycling.

Right, I did know that. I've been reading up on cycling quite a lot lately. I'm currently doing a fishless cycle on my 40 gallon tank, and I also have two 10 gallon tanks as well (that are both already properly cycled). The reason I asked this question is because I was under the impression that there should always be some nitrAtes in the tank at all times, and I was getting frustrated because my levels often measure out at 0.0 for nitrAtes. I read several articles tonight that indicated otherwise, that 0.0 nitrAtes would be a good thing. I kind of had an "a-ha!" moment. The most interesting article I read was by Chris Cow, an organic chemist who apparently introduced the concept of fishless cycling back in the 90s.

Technically, zero nitrates are wonderful for fish. Nitrate isn't as toxic as ammonia/nitrite, however is does hurt a fish's immune system. You always want zero ammonia/nitrite, but low levels of nitrate are acceptable, although not truly wanted unless it's a planted tank. I'm new to planted tanks, so I'm not going to touch that one.

Yeah, I don't have a planted tank right now, although it's a goal of mine. Right now I'm just trying to master the basics: cycling, not killing my fish, etc. I think a planted tank would be really beautiful.

The answer to your "which one is best" question depends. On a tank with recently added fish in it, your second answer would be healthier for the fish. Not because it has mildly toxic nitrate in the water, but because those readings indicate a cycled tank.

This makes me feel kind of hopefully excited because I have had these readings. For example, I'll dose the tank with ammonia at bedtime, and then measure the levels when I get up in the morning. Or vice versa - I dose the tank in the morning and then measure the levels when I get home from work. For example, I dosed the tank this morning at 1:30 a.m. (well, yesterday morning, technically) to 4-5 ppm, and had the following readings by 7:00 a.m.:

ammonia: 0.50
nitrItes : 2.0
nitrAtes : 80
pH : 7.3

When I got home from work at 5:30 p.m. I had the following readings:

ammonia: 0.25
nitrItes : 0.00
nitrAtes : 0.00
pH : 7.8

So, I thought I would try dosing the tank now to half the amount of ammonia as I was using before, and seeing how fast the conversion happens.

Having said that, if you've been adding a sufficient level of ammonia to the tank before you added fish, there's no way you could have the first reading without doing massive water changes all the time.

I'm not doing a lot of water changes, to be honest. But I have had a few days where the readings have all been zeros and the pH has been around 7.4-7.8. FWIW, I've been cycling this tank for exactly one month and have been very frustrated. But I think I didn't understand what to do exactly, or what I was looking for. Now that I better understand how the cycling works, I am feeling more confident about things.

Thanks for your response

 

[chickenkev]

I dosed the tank this morning at 1:30 a.m. (well, yesterday morning, technically) to 4-5 ppm, and had the following readings by 7:00 a.m.:

ammonia: 0.50
nitrItes : 2.0
nitrAtes : 80
pH : 7.3

When I got home from work at 5:30 p.m. I had the following readings:

ammonia: 0.25
nitrItes : 0.00
nitrAtes : 0.00
pH : 7.8

You realise that this sequence is a bit odd?
ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate
so your ammonia level dropped, but no waste products from the conversion were detected. Your nitrates were high initially but this may be artificial due to the nitrite assay (ie high nitrite readings interfere with, and give a higher nitrate reading). In a normal tank only plants reduce nitrates, otherwise you have to rely on partial water changes to bring them down to acceptable levels for your fish. There are 'nitrate removal sponges' available on some filters, my Juwel has one, but most people seem to think that they do no good whatsoever. Do you have a good quality liquid test kit? Do you follow the instructions exactly? I'm not sure I can explain the above readings...

 

[William470]

Sorry to add on to this thread (hijack) but I am having some Nitrate issues that might be hindering my Fishless Cycle.

For close to month now I have been performing a fishless cycle with clear ammonia. When I check my readings they are always constant. Ammonia 4 ppm, Nitrite 0 ppm

Then on Monday for some curious reason I started testing my tanks Nitrate levels. And what I got was surprising. My tanks Nitrate reading is at 20 ppm. And my Ammonia and Nitrite levels were the same.

I was curious again and I checked my tap water and found out where my 20 ppm of Nitrate is coming from.

Is going to be an issue with my fishless cycling? And in the future when my cycling is finished when I add fish?

You can either post here or send me a PM.

Thanks

William

 

[chickenkev]

My understanding is that it shouldn't be an issue, some local water supplies have nitrates from agricultural waste. It shouldn't affect your cycle, you still need to be in a position where you can add 4ppm ammonia in the morning and have 0 ammonia and nitrites in the evening (I should point out I've not done a fishless cycle but this is my understanding).

The issue you're going to face is that 20ppm is considered towards the highest your nitrates should run, for fish comfort. Obviously using your tap water, doing partial water changes you can only approach 20ppm nitrates, but never get lower than it. You may consider using plants in you tank which use up some nitrate so should reduce your nitrates; or using an alternative water source. I think a reverse osmosis / deionising unit may also help you out here but I have no experience and little knowledge about these, other people on here may help you out.

 

[Twoapennything]

Do you have a good quality liquid test kit? Do you follow the instructions exactly? I'm not sure I can explain the above readings...

I use the API master kit for freshwater tanks. As far as I know, the API is a good kit.

This morning's reading was:

Ammonia: 0.0
NitrItes : 0.25
NitrAtes : 5
pH : 7.6

This seems more in line with a normal cycle, I think. The ammonia is being converted and so is the nitrIte. So the ammonia went from 5 ppm last night at 5:30 (I dosed the tank after testing my levels) to 0.0 within 12.5 hours. It seems like this would be a positive sign.

 

[Twoapennything]

For close to month now I have been performing a fishless cycle with clear ammonia. When I check my readings they are always constant. Ammonia 4 ppm, Nitrite 0 ppm

Have you tried adding phosphates? I've read that a stalled cycle can sometimes be due to a lack of phosphates, which is absolutely necessary for the cycle to complete. 7Enigma's article mentions using the product pH Down in a very small amount - apparently a small dose won't affect your pH level, but will provide the necessary phosphates. I have been using the pH Down very conservatively during my cycling, and I guess I can say that I have been getting nitrIte readings. I don't know if the pH Down is solely responsible for that, but perhaps it's helping in some capacity. I'll quote the article:

Buy/borrow a small bottle of pH Down. Add 1-2 drops per 4 gallons of tank water. These pH products contain large amounts of phosphates which your bacteria need to grow. This small amount will not affect the pH of the tank and will supply all the phosphate needed. Lots of 'my cycle stopped/stalled' posts can be attributed to phosphate deficiency.