Reef techniques in FW tanks

[Kizayaen]

I was going to read through the whole forum to ensure that nobody'd asked these questions, but I quickly became daunted when I realised that there's 192 pages of posts. I apologise if somebody's already addressed these topics. I searched extensively on Google and couldn't find any information, so I figured I'd come ask here.

As any of you know who are marine enthusiasts, saltwater tanks commonly make use of live gravel and sand to extend their nitrogen cycle out into a more complete biological cycle.... so here are my questions.

1. Is there any precedent for, or knowledge of, the use of live rock in freshwater tanks? I don't mean the live rock you'd buy for your marine tank; I'm assuming that the salinity difference would kill off any beneficial critters in short order. I mean going out to your local stream or lake and obtaining some gravel or rock there. I don't think that things like worms, snails, and insects would be any problem; I'm mostly concerned about the possibilities of harmful microorganisms. It was my line of reasoning that if this technique could work for a marine tank, then why couldn't it help moderate nitrates/nitrites and possibly phosphates a bit if used in a freshwater tank as well? I don't intend to set up one of the "no water change in 3 years" supertanks that you'd find with a well-developed reef tank; just thought that perhaps it would afford a bit more stability and thus comfort for my fish.

2. Is there any benefit to using a protein skimmer in a freshwater tank? Again, it seems like it should provide the same services that it does in a marine tank: i.e. removing biological matter from the water and therefore cutting down on a significant source of ammonia.

Once again, I apologise if this is a common question. I would very much appreciate any insights that any of you may offer.

~ Kiz

 

[BillD]

Some of us have looked at this, at times. I would say that the live rock equivalent in FW is plants. Your substrate will become "live" when it is populated with bacteria that consumes ammonia, and nitrites, as will every surface of every thing in the tank, including the glass. As far as foam fractionation goes, it appears that it will work to some degree in FW but will not get the brown mung you get in a SW skimmer. The fact that it will work is amply demonstrated when fine bubbles coming out of the water after a water change bring particles to the surface. This bears more investigation, as the value may not be there.

 

[greenmaji]

BillD summed up live rock equivency pretty welll..
The protine skimmer is a physics imposiblity with FW.. it would need to be redesighned for FW.. the travel up the skimmer would have to be shorter and the diamiter of the tube would need to be smaller as well..

On the other had ATS is a new reef technique that is in its infancy as far as use is considered and it is being used very succesfully in FW applications.. no one on this board is using it yet for FW,I asked someone from another boad that was using one(FW ATS) to help me reaserch the subjet, Im working on building a couple of them myself but as can be seen in my sig. I have not set up my tanks recently (they had been in storage) so its going to be a while.. ashdavid has a 1850gal FW tank using ATS.. In DIY I have a thread were Im reaserching the subjet..
I hope this helps..

 

[Devilishturtles]

Another note. If you take anything out of the ground to put in your tank for FW, make sure you boil it thoroughly first before adding it. In some streams, run off from the land can contaminate the water slightly, leaving that residue on the rock you might want to get. Plants are definitley the LR equivelant to SW, I agree. They help alot in soaking up nitrates in your aquarium.

A protein skimmer would pull very little from a FW tank. They are made to remove proteins, and thus other large inorganic molecules, from the water via attaching them to the bubbles. You don't really have this in FW, so it's not needed. A bio-wheel would do you basically the same thing in a FW tank, as a protein skimmer would in SW tank.

 

[czcz]

Just want to add that plants complete the nitrogen cycle by building mass. As soon as you trim them, you completely remove that waste from the system. (The SW analog would be macroalgae, as I understand, or ATS.)

 

[greenmaji]

There is proteins in FW and a bio-wheel does not remove them. in fact the only FW technique that is commonly used to remove protein is a water change.
ATS removes dissolved organics and inorganics and toxic metals.. from the removal of the algae that is done once every 7-14 days..

*edit* ATS has been known to rerelease organics once absorbed back into the water coelom *edit*

 

[malkore]

Protein skimming is, indeed, far to inefficient to be worthwhile in a FW tank. the salinty and composition of the SW is what allows foam fractionation (skimming) to work so well. FW just doesn't form sticky enough bubbles to work well in any conventional skimmer design.

 

[greenmaji]

I agree with malkore in some respect even if a protein skimmer was re-engineered to work for a freshwater tank the waste removed by it would not be of the same quality as it is in salt water tanks.. The argument for not producing such a devise is that the water is not as expensive as saltwater, I personally am of the belive that great filtration should not be held back because of the cost of the water being treated.. In my opinion all water, expecialy fresh water, is a limited resource regardless of economic cost...JMHO

 

[greenmaji]

I started a DIY thread on ATS...
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=56247

 

[Kizayaen]

Awesome! I really appreciate your willingness to share your wealth of information.

 

[greenmaji]

absolutly no problem at all!