Refugiums, DSBs, Algal Scrubbers: Water Changes No More?

[greenmaji]

I don't uinderstand the appeal of building or buying a algae scrubber or DSB in freshwater, since a tub of anacharis and hornwort and cheap lights will drastically reduce nitrogen waste and could take ammonium before the bacteria does. I really like tech and run reverse photoperiod fuge just to do it, learn, and keep numbers stable, but I think anyone considering SW methods should read Diana Walstad's Ecology of the Planted Aquarium as well. (Ive only recently gotten it.) Why tech when plants do the job?

Algae scrubbers..
Plants with more structure are not as efficient as miro-algae no plant is as efficient actually..
I do understand that it is not needed, detrimental even, in a planted tank though.. This is more of a consideration for a fresh water fish only system in my opinion..
Thanks for the reading suggestion..

 

[andywg]

Never really researched algae scrubbers. Will look into it and report back . However sincer I try to plant all my tanks (even those with sumps) I'm not sure it would be appropriate to me.

 

[czcz]

No problem, green. Here's AA amazon proceed page if you want it -- did not know this helped AA until I had already ordered it. :/

My comments were mostly in regard to claim of eco system stability and low/no maint capability of algae scrubbers. I think its important to note there's quite a few people who have data on tanks following the natural method that only top off water from evaporation. You may like Steve Hampton's low tech page too: http://www.aquariaplants.com/lowlighttank.htm -- and I recall Mr. Hampton stating he's had success with this in a number of tanks. I think the feedback of such experts who've actually done it is much more valuable than theory -- it be interesting to me to see the numbers and subjective observations of "fish only" main systems filtered with plants (say, in sump) vs micro algae... I think its easily possible both pass the threshold of effective filtration. Don't know of course, but if I ever get command of high light adding a little algae screen to a hanging container may be a project here too.

I had not heard about algae scrubbers until you bumped this thread btw, but did some reading and most every page from google search mentioned debate about its effectiveness and possible detriment to corals in SW. The correlation to FW ends at plants, and doesn't affect fish?

Look forward to your report, andywg

 

[Guest]

there is currently LITTLE or NO info on algal scrubing, DSBs & reugiums in freshwater use. this is because freshwater tends to be deemed of little interest. while marine is on the rise and all the research and whatnot goes there, but i shall diligently continue looking.

I think that you are off in your reasoning for why there is little FW interest. Its not because FW tanks are unpopular, in fact they outnumber SW tanks by a huge margin. Its because water changes in a FW set-up are so easy, especially with the use of a Python, that it is completely unnecessary to run some expensive set-up.

 

[TankGirl]

I agree completely, Tony, and I would love to hear back from urville about what he is doing. In a SW setup you have to do everything you can to keep your expensive water clean, and creating a self-contained water treatment system is cost-effective. We can just whip out the ole Python for mere pennies.

This thread is of renewed interest to me, also, since I am also running a no-tech tank and the issues it faces are not handled at all in the same way you handle issues in a tach tank.

 

[greenmaji]

TankGirl... are you able to have a pump on a no-tech tank? or lights? Im guessing it depends on how extreme you want to go with a idea I suppose.. I have some ideas that would require very little tech.. if you would like to chat sometime..

Tony..
I personally think that a DIY algae scrubber or fuge would be extremely inexpensive.. if you got a decent deal on a filter for FW you should be able to get one on a water pump I would think.. it is a little more complicated than that but not much really..

czcz.. I think a fuge with plants is a good way to go.. algae may be more efficient but not so much so that it would make a great deal of difference.. and Ive seen posts from a user on the cichlid forum that is using algae scrubbers on his 800 gallon fish only FW tank.. so there is some in practice.. if you search for algae scrubbers youll find his posts... he has pictures up of the filter.. it looks like a mess! LOL..

I dont think that a self-contained water treatment system has to be the goal in the project just better water quality without spending more money than you usually would on bacterial based filters..ie HOB's and canisters and the like..and a overflow and a fuge or algae scrubber can run alot less depending on how fancy you want to make it.. I could venture to guess you could do it for the price of a decent HOB no problem.. czcz how much have you invested in your fuge?

 

[TankGirl]

GM - I am running a tank with lights and a heater, without any water movement. I know Diana Walstad uses HOBs and canisters without any media, just for water movement, but I don't want to run a filter.

It has 2wpg PC lighting, so it is not truly no-tech, but it is a display tank and I find these purely natural, sunlight driven no-tech tanks to be somewhat unattractive, just for my preference on how a tank should look. This tank is not maintained in the same way at all as my other tanks, and is kindof an experiment for me, but so far so good.

 

[greenmaji]

GM - I am running a tank with lights and a heater, without any water movement. I know Diana Walstad uses HOBs and canisters without any media, just for water movement, but I don't want to run a filter.

It has 2wpg PC lighting, so it is not truly no-tech, but it is a display tank and I find these purely natural, sunlight driven no-tech tanks to be somewhat unattractive, just for my preference on how a tank should look. This tank is not maintained in the same way at all as my other tanks, and is kindof an experiment for me, but so far so good.

The only improvement I can think of for that kind of no-tech tank would be a fuge with reverse photoperiod like czcz is running.. that would require pumping the water back to the tank though.. 2wpg is a interesting way to go, wouldnt quite need CO2 at those levels either Im sure that was by design...LOL. Im guessing you need to fertilize every so often.... NICE!

 

[BillD]

Interesting thread. I have seen a fresh water denitification product that was to have been marketed. It require a plenum of a certain depth (double thickness of eggcrate with screen on top) and gravel of specfic size (about 1/8") at a specific depth range. If the gravel is to large or small or to shallow or deep, it alters the flow of water in and out of the plenum. The water in the plenum is not anaerobic, but rather anoxious. That is to say, it is very low in oxygen, but there is some. It has been proven to work. The problem as I see it, is that you can have a system that has no ammonia, no nitrite, and no nitrate, so you would not need to change the wayer to be rid of nitrates. however there are a plethora of other compounds in a tank, such as DOCs, hormones, and other metabolic wastes that aren't tested for and may in fact be more insidious than nitrate. If you subscribe to the chaos theory, at some point everything will come to an equilibrium in a closed system. there is a company out there that designs just such a thing for home and office. the question than becomes"what do you actually have at this point of equilibrium"? The problem then becomes knowing in advance what will be the end result, before you start. It is certainly a topic that bears investigation, even if only for interest sake.

 

[mumrah]

and a overflow and a fuge or algae scrubber can run alot less depending on how fancy you want to make it

I made an overflow with pvc pipe for ~$5. It's kinda ugly, but it works just fine.

 

[czcz]

green - if I ran my fuge barebottomed with no shrimp, ~$60 counting cost of plants I moved from other tanks and the dremmel bit to drill my main and the no longer used wet/dry (which I would think would be used if it was the only filter for fish only main and non-co2 injected fuge). $35 of that is the (pos) return pump, but I overpaid at LFS. This gives me 140gph measured through the tank, so would support a much bigger tank I think. If interested, I purchased a backordered MagDrive 2 from Petsmart.com for ~$25 shipped, but still not shipped yet. That should give ~200gph at my head height, and I would think it could support a medium/large tank of even ARLC, considering most canisters don't put that much turnover out (especially measured with media), don't offer nitrogen uptake, and don't provide excellent oxygenation of wet/dry. With shrimp I'm well over $100 invested.

Thinking of algae scrubber, since its screens growing micro algae I would think you could position it slightly over the tank, then have water from a cheap PH going from the main to the filtration chamber, and overflow from the chamber to the main. PH would be high in the main to prevent too much water coming out. Considering one could use scrap window screen and some rubermaid bin, I'll bet it could be done for ~$30. If I do this experiment I'll be doing this layout with it overflowing to my fuge.

 

[greenmaji]

czcz..
Did you wear out the bit so that it cant be used for another project?.. you did drill though.. I think that a hose overflow, the ones Ive discussed in other threads, would be cheaper.. yet not as reliable... I think the pump and lighting would be the big expenses for a cheap installation.. just wondering about what you were spending on the kind of setup you did.. even with the cost of the bit to drill the glass thats not a bad price for a filter.. the estmated cost anyway..
an overhead algae scrubber sounds intresting..Ive seen plans for overhead wet/dry's I could see how it could be done.

 

[czcz]

The diamond bit is still usable (used it to drill a patch, too).

the estmated cost anyway..

Did you want itemized cost? I don't have receipts or anything but can estimate it if wanted.

 

[TankGirl]

I need 2wpg for vigorous plant growth necessary to keep the water filtered, but it is not so much that I need CO2, which is tricky in a still water closed system.

This tank was set up purely as the result of pressure from a natural tank enthusiast friend who teased me constantly about my filters and water changes, and I finally decided to "unplug" and prove that I was not so bound by my own dogma that I would not try something new.

My whole philosophy behind my 50% weekly water changes and overfiltration of my other tanks stems from my firm belief that DOCs and other waste products of life inside my aquariums is harmful in the longterm, and ammonia, nitrite and nitrate barely scratch the surface of what accumulates in tanks over time. I have seen, over the years, a drastic improvement in life span, spawning behavior and general hardiness of my fish since I have adopted a vigorous waste removal program, so leaving stuff to collect on the bottom goes very much against my grain. In spite of the obvious benefit to the plant life in my low-tech tank, I do think this tank will rapidly acidify, the pH will drop and things will start to go wrong. I am watching things carefully.

Sorry to get so far OT, but combining the concepts of plant filtration (essentially what algae does when it "scrubs," lol) and a high tech display tank is quite possibly my next step, so a thorough discussion of all aspects is required.

 

[greenmaji]

Sorry to get so far OT, but combining the concepts of plant filtration (essentially what algae does when it "scrubs," lol) and a high tech display tank is quite possibly my next step, so a thorough discussion of all aspects is required.

Understood...

I did say the 2wpg was by design..LOL..
I am wondering if you have fish in your no-tech tank and how there fairing.. Im assuming you have at least a light bio-load to make it a working closed system.. how do there health compare to your other fish?

I do hope this discussion does help your selection for equipment for future high tech display tank...

 

[greenmaji]

The diamond bit is still usable (used it to drill a patch, too).

the estmated cost anyway..

Did you want itemized cost? I don't have receipts or anything but can estimate it if wanted.

Itemized might be a bit much.. just wanted a comparison of price for premade filtration options...

 

[greenmaji]

and a overflow and a fuge or algae scrubber can run alot less depending on how fancy you want to make it

I made an overflow with pvc pipe for ~$5. It's kinda ugly, but it works just fine.

There you go.. pvc or flexable tubing can be used for alot less then premade overflows..

 

[greenmaji]

The problem as I see it, is that you can have a system that has no ammonia, no nitrite, and no nitrate, so you would not need to change the wayer to be rid of nitrates. however there are a plethora of other compounds in a tank, such as DOCs, hormones, and other metabolic wastes that aren't tested for and may in fact be more insidious than nitrate.

As far as metabolic wastes are none of these consumed by bacteria or plants? It would be worth investigation..
Im not arguing the closed system here just better filtration.. as I see it nitrate is poison just as the other forms of nitrogen just less poisons..

If you subscribe to the chaos theory, at some point everything will come to an equilibrium in a closed system. there is a company out there that designs just such a thing for home and office. the question than becomes"what do you actually have at this point of equilibrium"? The problem then becomes knowing in advance what will be the end result, before you start. It is certainly a topic that bears investigation, even if only for interest sake.

Do you remember the name of the company that is doing the designing and what are they designing closed systems or a software that will calculate what will be the end result of the chaos theory equilibrium?

 

[TankGirl]

FWIW, my no-tech tank is stocked with many Endler's livebearers - about 10 adults and many juvies and wee fry, too many to count. I also have a large ramshorn in there and about 8 Amano shrimp. The fish are hale and hearty and are reproducing like mad in there. The tank is a complete success right now, but as it matures I see trouble.

 

[greenmaji]

FWIW, my no-tech tank is stocked with many Endler's livebearers - about 10 adults and many juvies and wee fry, too many to count. I also have a large ramshorn in there and about 8 Amano shrimp. The fish are hale and hearty and are reproducing like mad in there. The tank is a complete success right now, but as it matures I see trouble.

Why are you dooming your no-tech tank!! 8O ROFL!! Why do you think your going to have problems with it? are you allowed to do water changes and if so how often? Can you dose ferts. if there needed? Im very curious about the tank ...