Salt levels in freshwater tanks

[mapexmac007]

Thank you JLK, for this information and the links. I'll read them tomorrow as it's quite late now. I'm increasing WCs to twice/week, 30% each change. I'll visit my LFS for Prime as well and an API Test Kit.

 

[pip walters]

Low levels of salt as suggested are fine and will not impact on beneficial bacteria.... the same bacteria live in marine environments. Salinity in natural bodies.of freshwater is the total of all dissolved mineral salts. As aquarists are adding just one of these, in the form of rock salt, there will be no effect on Kh or pH

A higher Kh, which is directly related to pH does affect ammonia, as toxicity of ammonia increases at higher pH. This is also temperature dependent, so is not such a problem to goldfish in a coldwater set up.


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[Rivercats]

Indispensable help here Rivercats, THANKS!!

What specifically is that Aqueon "Water Changer"? Is this some pump/filter mechanism? I was speaking of Aqueon's "Water Conditioner". I'm quite liberal with it, given what's at stake, almost a double-dose of what's asked for, given how miserable our tap water is.

I will conduct the first 50% WC of the day in about 30 minutes. I'll wait 5 hours or so, and do another.

When using "tank water" to rinse bio-mech and/or filter elements, you're speaking of using water which was just removed from the tank, correct? I deduce that this measure protects the bacteria in the filter elements, correct?

One last one: What exactly is "Prime"? Is this a brand name or a specific type of treatment?

Thanks a bunch! I do indeed love our fish, as does my wife and daughter.

I use tap water to clean all sponges in a canister. I squeeze them out over and over until the water runs clean. In a canister filter such as the Fluval's the sponges are used as a mechanical filter not as a bio-media. In fact in canister if the sponges aren't kept very clean they will actually cause nitrates to rise to high levels over time. I don't use tank water to clean them as they are detritus catchers and not bio-media in canisters.

As for the actual bio-media, which in my case I use ceramic tubes, I don't rinse them at all unless for some reason a lot of detritus is on them. That only happens when I do a big plant moving in my 220. If I do rinse them then I do use either tank water or RO water. Using either will protect the BB from being killed off like tap water would.

Then I replace the Polyfill, carbon, or any other media I might have used. Normally I just use Polyfill.

This is a water changer which makes water changes very easy.... Aqueon Aquarium Water Changer at PETCO. No more buckets which makes doing large water changes so much easier.

This is Prime and explains what it does.... Seachem Prime at PETCO. This would be used instead of the Aqueon Water Conditioner you use. It's more expensive but you only use a very small amount. I buy the larger bottle since I have so many tanks and ponds and for my 220g I only use 2 capfuls (on the large bottle) to treat the entire tank. I began using it in the late 80's when I started keeping reef tanks and have never used anything else since.

 

[mapexmac007]

Rivercats,
A few questions if I may.

Regarding the Water Changer:
So you run this hose from the sink to the tank? We'd use it to first siphon-out the water, then use it to fill/add water? How/when/where do you treat the incoming water with additives such as Prime? Perhaps I'm simply missing something in the procedure...

As for Fluval cleaning:
I leave my bio-mech undisturbed (ceramic tubes and the mesh tubes it came with); in the past maybe a quick squirt of tap water here or there to remove some detritus build-up. As of yesterday though, I'll only rinse it (now) in the waste water.

I rang-out the sponges in the waster water too, to rid them of detritus. But your point of nitrite build-up within the canister has me concerned. I'll follow your advice that BB doesn't live in the sponges, so they can get thoroughly rinsed under tap water.

My saline measurement after yesterday's WC is ~1.003 specific gravity, or ~3 PPT

Just an aside: The whole rub here on adding salt is to counteract the insanely high calcium mineral deposits in the water here in this town. It's nuts! Faucet seals, shower heads, etc. go through heck, needing replacement about twice as often as other cities I've lived in.

 

[pip walters]

To suggest sponges are only mechanical filters and not biological and then say they cause high nitrate build up over time is somewhat contradictory IMO.

Any surface area within any filter that can house bacteria has to be beneficial. Sponges with their intricate woven fibres offer massive surface area with good water and oxygen flow (when rinsed of collected debris regularly) so can support a healthy population of BB, as suggested by my own experience and by others on this forum. As we know, BB produce nitrate through nitrification, so it stands to reason that nitrates will increase over time whether sponges or other media with a large surface area are used.

As bacteria on the sponge (and any other surface) grow, multiply and die, they form layers that thicken with age, gradually filling pores and eventually clogging spaces. This is, of course, exasperated by the collection of organic matter in the filter and eventually the filter becomes less and less efficient due to poor flow and oxygenation.... hence the need to rinse all media at intervals. Rinsing in chlorinated water kills BB, so you instantly lose a large proportion of your filters ability to process ammonia.

 

[pip walters]

With regard to your salnity, I don't think adding salt will help with reduction in calcium etc that ks causing you problems. You would do well to invest in an RO unit and mix your water to get the results you require.

 

[Delapool]

With regard to your salnity, I don't think adding salt will help with reduction in calcium etc that ks causing you problems. You would do well to invest in an RO unit and mix your water to get the results you require.

Yes, still lost on how adding salt will help. Pip there is an RO on the hot water I believe.

I would also agree with Pip that the sponges have bb so some care needs to be taken. Yes more should be in the bio/media but I'd go carefully.

If you are running multiple filters, then more flexibility. I do wash out the sponges ( blasted under a tap hose so I expect no bb to survive) and put back together. I alternate between cleaning canister filters so one filter is always undisturbed. After cleaning I check ammonia for a bit just in case.

 

[jlk]

With regard to your salnity, I don't think adding salt will help with reduction in calcium etc that ks causing you problems. You would do well to invest in an RO unit and mix your water to get the results you require.

Adding aquarium salt to a tank is not going to affect the hardness of the water in respect to reducing the levels of Gh and Kh. I think you are confusing the use of salt in your water softening system to reduce hardness levels through a resin and/or ion exchange system. Adding aq salt simply just makes your tank water salty. All freshwater has a natural base salinity to it which varies depending on one's locale. Your fancies do not require anything beyond what already exists.

There is nothing wrong with the tap water here as its perfectly suitable for goldfish and an RO unit is simply an unnecessary expense.

 

[mapexmac007]

Some really solid advice being shared here folks, thank you so much!

Pip, I DO have an RO filtration, and it's on the cold water line of the house, not the hot.

I will cease adding any salt to this environment immediately. I'll be buying some PRIME tomorrow, and go with changing 20% of my tank capacity every 7 days. There is (in recent months) very little detritus in the tank/filter since I've cut back feedings to every other day.

Current salinity readings are: ~3PPT / 1.003 specific gravity. I'll leave that alone, and let the bacterial colonies in the gravel and filter and ornamental rocks (a large lava rock structure) handle the natural conditioning of the water.

Also, I'll be gradually dropping the tank's temperature to ~68°F. Once summer kicks-in, the room temp in that kitchen space does climb, and the tank goes with it, but never about mid 70's.

 

[jlk]

There is an RO filtration system on the cold water line that you are using for your tank?

What temp does your tank normally read? Fancies are generally the happiest in the low to mid 70's range. Seasonal fluctuations are fine and nothing to be concerned about.

 

[mapexmac007]

The RO filtration is under the kitchen sink, and room temp water comes out, so I'm deducing it's not supplied from the house's hot water lines. It MAY be fed by a software line, of that I"m not sure. We rent, and didn't install this unit.

I can get about 2.5 gallons out of it before its pressure becomes a slow trickle. There is about a 2.5 gallon reservoir under the sink along with its filters. The RO support tank houses the water since RO takes such a long period of time to percolate through the various membranes. So I'm told...

Sounds like we're OK on the temps, that's good!

Thanks JLK

 

[Rivercats]

First off let's clairify I said "I don't use tank water to clean them as they are detritus catchers and not bio-media in canisters." I never said they didn't contain BB if you read my post. In Fluval canisters the sponges are used as mechanical filters. I don't worry about any BB being killed off as there is plenty in my actual bio-media. The Fluval canisters have the side sponges that catch larger detritus and the bottom black sponge is for catching smaller detritus. Therefore a thorough cleaning of both types of sponges should be done to keep all detritus removed. Tank water can be used if you'd rather but you have to watch your tanks nitrates as they can build up over time, especially in GF tanks. I've been using Fluval canisters since the 80's, cleaning them in the same manner without causing any mini cycles or bacterial blooms from rinsing away any BB they contain.

As for using the water changer you use the faucet to get the syphon going, then turn the faucets off. When your ready to fill the tank you simply set the water temp to what you want, turn the valve, and the water then goes into the tank. I then go out and add the proper amount of Prime to treat the entire tank size and not just for the amount of water added. It beats the heck out of buckets.

 

[pip walters]

Adding aquarium salt to a tank is not going to affect the hardness of the water in respect to reducing the levels of Gh and Kh. I think you are confusing the use of salt in your water softening system to reduce hardness levels through a resin and/or ion exchange system. Adding aq salt simply just makes your tank water salty. All freshwater has a natural base salinity to it which varies depending on one's locale. Your fancies do not require anything beyond what already exists.

There is nothing wrong with the tap water here as its perfectly suitable for goldfish and an RO unit is simply an unnecessary expense.

Why did you quote me here? I actually said that salt will have no effect on kh etc! I was referring to the OPs concerns about calcium deposits aroundthe tank hood, which is why I suggested he mixed some ro water with his usual water (which would also be perfectly fine for goldfish)

 

[pip walters]

First off let's clairify I said "I don't use tank water to clean them as they are detritus catchers and not bio-media in canisters." I never said they didn't contain BB if you read my post. In Fluval canisters the sponges are used as mechanical filters. I don't worry about any BB being killed off as there is plenty in my actual bio-media. The Fluval canisters have the side sponges that catch larger detritus and the bottom black sponge is for catching smaller detritus. Therefore a thorough cleaning of both types of sponges should be done to keep all detritus removed. Tank water can be used if you'd rather but you have to watch your tanks nitrates as they can build up over time, especially in GF tanks. I've been using Fluval canisters since the 80's, cleaning them in the same manner without causing any mini cycles or bacterial blooms from rinsing away any BB they contain.

As for using the water changer you use the faucet to get the syphon going, then turn the faucets off. When your ready to fill the tank you simply set the water temp to what you want, turn the valve, and the water then goes into the tank. I then go out and add the proper amount of Prime to treat the entire tank size and not just for the amount of water added. It beats the heck out of buckets.

What you actually said is that in fluval and other canister filters the sponges are used as mechanical not biological filter. I'm not sure this is a rule is it? You said that if the sponges are not kept really clean they cause a.build up of nitrates over time - I was merely pointing out that it is the BB living on the sponge that would.cause nitrate build up and that it is surely beneficial to keep this BB alive by not rinsing under the tap.

If I misunderstood what you were saying, then I apologise, but just because you don't use them as biological filters, it doesn't mean that is a hard and fast rule. I am trying to help the OP maintain as much BB as possible.

 

[mapexmac007]

Acknowledging that BB can/does live in the Fluval sponge filter elements, it would be most beneficial to protect that BB, and rinse-off detritus in "old tank water" as opposed to a tap water rinse. However, if the sponges are really clogged, then yes, a tap water rinse seems in order. Any BB is a good thing, whether they reside in bio-mech or in the sponges, or along the walls of the Fluval canister for that matter.

As for the salt, it was my initial misunderstanding that the calcium deposits I am seeing around the tank top edges and tank hose cutouts, etc. would be less if my tank water was "softer" than the tap water I WC with. Pip has explained my misconception, along with several other folks chipping-in on the salt/no salt in freshwater tanks discussion. Simply adding salt to my water isn't going to "soften" the water, as does happen via my house's water softener. My bad, my error. No more salt, period (unless it's for treating an illness).

At this point, I'll leave the salt out of my WC treatments, relying solely on the Prime, which I'm picking-up today from my LFS.

 

[BillD]

No wonder you are chasing high nitrite and ammonia. You aren't changing near enough water. The last thing hard water meeds is adding more mineral to it. You don't need salt you need to do 50% weekly water changes (or even more), and yes i know water is at a premium in Vegas. It would also seem your filtartion is inadequate if you have ammonia and nitite.

 

[mapexmac007]

Bill,

According to AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor

Changing 6-10 gallons per 7 days is sufficient for the size of my GF (all ~4 inches in length). An optimal WC is ~21% (of 29 gallons), and my Fluval is well within its ability to handle this bio-load. My estimated stock level is 79% and my filter capacity is at 143%. My pH is ~7.6, temperature ~74°.

My tank is currently fish-in cycling — again — due to my impetuous counter-attack to remove as much brown algae as I could reach. (inlet and vacuum pipes, rocks, and the filter too.)

I acknowledge my error; I should have removed a little algae here and there, not all of it at once. This bone-headed maneuver cost me ALL of the BB in my filter and likely a fair amount of BB which was residing in my tank as well (on rocks, decorations, etc).

Live and learn.

In the midst of this, (not because of it) I've got a very sick 4" Fancy-tail GF family member fighting for her life, and in need of some very gentle care.

I'm honestly, peacefully seeking help from persons who have a far-greater experience than my own. I'm implementing the advice as quickly as I can, and within the limits of my budget.

Your castigation of my situation reads as an apparent vote of no confidence. Criticism in pointing-out my errors isn't as beneficial as suggestive guidance. I would hope an AA Team Emeritus would have a little more diplomacy in his choice of wording.

Thank you.

 

[pip walters]

No wonder you are chasing high nitrite and ammonia. You aren't changing near enough water. The last thing hard water meeds is adding more mineral to it. You don't need salt you need to do 50% weekly water changes (or even more), and yes i know water is at a premium in Vegas. It would also seem your filtartion is inadequate if you have ammonia and nitite.

As more than one of us has stated, adding salt will have no effect on the hardness .

 

[pip walters]

Acknowledging that BB can/does live in the Fluval sponge filter elements, it would be most beneficial to protect that BB, and rinse-off detritus in "old tank water" as opposed to a tap water rinse. However, if the sponges are really clogged, then yes, a tap water rinse seems in order. Any BB is a good thing, whether they reside in bio-mech or in the sponges, or along the walls of the Fluval canister for that matter.

As for the salt, it was my initial misunderstanding that the calcium deposits I am seeing around the tank top edges and tank hose cutouts, etc. would be less if my tank water was "softer" than the tap water I WC with. Pip has explained my misconception, along with several other folks chipping-in on the salt/no salt in freshwater tanks discussion. Simply adding salt to my water isn't going to "soften" the water, as does happen via my house's water softener. My bad, my error. No more salt, period (unless it's for treating an illness).

At this point, I'll leave the salt out of my WC treatments, relying solely on the Prime, which I'm picking-up today from my LFS.

Regular rinsing will pevent severe clogging. I rinse my sponges every one to two weeks and they are the only filters in the tanks. I rinse until the sponges look yellow again, but obviously, I am never going to remove every scrap of dirt... but that's not a bad thing as BB will be clinging diligently to that little.bit of dirt too

 

[mapexmac007]

Just for the record, allow me to state that it is NOW understood, adding salt to my environment will not soften the water.

2nd point: Filter sponges will be rinsed in used tank water unless they're REALLY clogged/dirty — in which case they will get a rinse bath in tap water.

What steps can one take to lower the hardness of one's tank water? Follow-up: what effect does overly-hard water have on a tank environment? I.e., should I concern myself with this regions hard water? Does it have a negative impact on this tank?