Semi-urgnet! Need help!

[longliveglam]

Semi-urgent! Need help!

It's been a while since we last posted here. We were new to fish and got our advice and basically never came back (since we got what we needed).

But here we are with a new problematic scenario. New knowledge, but still 17 years old and not equated with fish technicalities (but trying our best)!

SCENARIO: We have a 20 gallon tank at 78 degrees F. Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite levels are stable. We have a german yellow guppy and a harlequin raspbora that have been with us for months. The others are a bit more recent (less than a month old). A neon tetra, a rummynose tetra, a beckferds pencil fish, an orange hatchet danio, a furcata rainbow and a brilliant raspbora. The PH level is at 7.6

We used to have 3 furcata rainbows (all purchased at the same time), but one died about a week ago (maybe less) and another died today. We also lost one of two brilliant raspboras at the same time we lost the furcata a week ago.

Our mom made an observation that the furcata rainbows "seem to be losing their top fins", but it's not at all drastic or even unpleasant looking as we didn't even notice this. Our german yellow guppy has a very subtle touch of blood on the end of his tail, as if it's being picked at (this is VERY subtle). We noticed this weeks ago. Our pencilfish looks odd on one side-- it's like a rusty blood tone (but he is NOT deteriorating).

We're really worried about this. It's the most recently purchased fish that are dying as of recently (we got the german yellow and raspbora 3 months ago, the pencilfish, rummynose, orange hatchet, neon 2 months ago, and the rainbow and brilliant rasp. were only a few weeks ago).

Are they dying simply because they're new and couldn't adjust? It's strange, though, because one of our oldest fish has blood on his tail and the pencilfish seems to be having a problem as well.

Sorry it was a long (and probably difficult) read. We really appreciate anything you can tell us.

Thank you.

 

[Dano01]

What does stable ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate mean?.....Readings would be helpful....When was the last water change?......I suspect that the water conditions have deteriorated and the fish are stressed. You may have a nipper in the bunch also.

 

[marchmaxima]

My thoughts were along the same lines. It could be a bully, one of the new fish may have introduced a desease or illness, something in your water could be causing problem or perhaps a combination of these.

First thing I'd do is a big water change. Make sure to use a good dechlor. Test your water for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate before and after the change and post the results. It will give a clearer picture of what's going on in your tank.

Is the tank planted or non-planted?

 

[longliveglam]

Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

We did a water change just before posting. And yes, the tank is cycled. We do not have real plants in the tank. It doesn't seem that any of the new fish are bullies (there are only two new fish left anyway) and the two remaining are rather small compared to the two that seem to have blood on them (though I suppose size doesn't matter here).

We're really worried about the disease thing. Is there any specific disease we could watch for signs for?

Thank you.

EDIT: It's very early in the morning and our pencilfish is dead. This is very saddening (we get attached to them, name them, etc). ...He was found lying on a plant leaf looking quite bloody (though there was no blood on him otherwise). He was looking a lot more red than yesterday when we noticed one side of him looking a bit strange. It either looks like he was attacked or suffered from some strange internal disease.

Who could be the attacker with only two new fish left? :/ Is it possible an old fish would suddenly become violent?

Sorry for the stupid sounding questions.

 

[black hills tj]

How large of a PWC did you perform? Were those tests taken before or after the PWC? A tank that's showing Ammonia but no Nitrate, indicates that it is cycling. You should be showing at least some nitrates with that bioload.

It also sounds like you have a nipper in the group.

 

[joy13]

On the off chance your ammonia is coming from the tap check that water too. Prime is a good water conditioner.

Your fish might be stressing out I noticed you has one of several fish that like to be in groups. So one of the fish is probably stressing out more and attacking the others.

 

[peaceablegarden]

Sorry for your losses. I'm a relative newbie at this but it looks like your tank is cycling - I say this because you have Ammonia and no nitrAtes. The Ammonia should be at 0 and one might expect there to be some NitrAtes since those are the final by products which can only be removed with PWCs. I could be wrong about that, but regardless, Ammonia can cause problems for sure. I'd do another 20-30% pwc, some folks might even recommend a higher water change. If it were my tank with Ammonia above 0, I do 10-20% daily changes keeping an eye on the parameters. Hopefully someone with a bit of more knowledge with chime in with added suggestions.

 

[marchmaxima]

Ammonia: .25, Nitrite: 0, Nitrate: 0

We did a water change just before posting. And yes, the tank is cycled.

Sorry, but those results tell me your tank is not cycled. A properly cycled tank has no detectable trace of ammonia or nitrITE and DOES have detectable traces of nitrATE.

If you did a large water change, then tested the tank and your ammonia reading was 0.25ppm, then that tells me that prior to the water change, the chance of ammonia being at toxic levels is almost certain. Fish like neons will almost never survive the cycling process so I am certain this explains part of the problem.

Now the bad news: Cycling your tank properly now will require some daily maintenace for up to the next 6 weeks. First, test daily. What you want to do is ensure your ammonia and nitrite levels are at 0.25ppm and no higher than 0.5ppm. If they go higher, perform a water change. Change as much water as it takes to get the ammonia and nitrite levels under the safe 0.5ppm benchmark. With several fish in the tank, this might be a daily or even twice daily requirement. Eventually, ammonia and nitrite will return to 0ppm and nitrATE will rise. When this happens, your tank is cycled.

Alternatively you can return the fish to the fish shop and do a fishless cycle. Fishless cycling is recommened by most here because the fish aren't used as an ammonia source, it requires a LOT less maintenance during the process and takes less time to complete. Generally 4 weeks as opposed to 5 or 6.

I also highly recommend you read the articles on the nitrogen cycle and fishless cycling as I feel the topic has been misinterpreted along the way somewhere. You'll be all the better for it!!

Stay with it, and chin up! You'll get there!

 

[longliveglam]

About a month and a half ago we reached the last point of a cycle—there was a very high level of nitrAte and no ammonia or nitrIte.

We monitored every stage very carefully until the cycle was finally complete, and two weeks later algae started to grow. As far as I know, algae signifies a healthy, cycled tank.

It's possible that our nitrAte test kit isn't working if we don't have high levels of it presently in our tank. We've had expired tests in the past—I wouldn't be surprised—but I believe this one hasn't expired yet.

Our last Furcata Rainbow recently died, but our remaining fish seem very healthy.

Are there any other reasons as to why this could be happening? It was mentioned that the new fish could have introduced a disease into the tank. Is it possible for our remaining fish to have avoided it?

 

[black hills tj]

About a month and a half ago we reached the last point of a cycle—there was a very high level of nitrAte and no ammonia or nitrIte.

We monitored every stage very carefully until the cycle was finally complete, and two weeks later algae started to grow. As far as I know, algae signifies a healthy, cycled tank.

It's possible that our nitrAte test kit isn't working if we don't have high levels of it presently in our tank. We've had expired tests in the past—I wouldn't be surprised—but I believe this one hasn't expired yet.

Our last Furcata Rainbow recently died, but our remaining fish seem very healthy.

Are there any other reasons as to why this could be happening? It was mentioned that the new fish could have introduced a disease into the tank. Is it possible for our remaining fish to have avoided it?

If you add too many new fish at once, it raises the bioload to a level that the bacteria in your filter can't quickly adjust to. This causes a "mini-cycle" in your tank, where it basically has to cycle again.

 

[miniflea84]

Yeah, it sounds like there was a mini ammonia spike which probably came from adding new fish. How often do you test, and do you write down the results? Keeping a journal of sorts for your tank can really help when you are trying to figure out why fish are dying.

 

[marchmaxima]

possible, but that doesn't explain why nitrates dropped suddenly. It is possible the test kit went bad. I guess the only way to check that is to buy/borrow another test kit. Or alternatively, most LFSs will do a test for you. Perhaps that might help at least confirm/eliminate the kit being the issue.

I've also gotten incorrect results from a nitrate test when I didn't shake the bottle #2 for the full 30 seconds and then the test vial for a full minute.

 

[longliveglam]

The mini-ammonia spike really makes a lot of sense—we were never aware of that and often buy 4-6 fish at once.

Should we be buying very small amounts of fish at a time, then, if our tank is 20 gallons? Like 1-3?

 

[timwag2001]

4-6 fish at a time in a 20 gallon? how many fish do you have?

 

[longliveglam]

Right now we have 6. We're aware the rule of thumb is one inch of fish per gallon, but they seem to like the space.