setting up my latest tank..

[AtodaJ]

a good layer of peat, and driftwood has no chance of affecting my water right?

Not by enough to get it where you want imho.

I like the RO machine idea. I don't use an RO machine myself though. I have a "Water Store" just a block away that sells very high quality pure water for 25 cents a gallon. My neighborhood water is very hard and so using an RO machine seemed like it would be pretty costly given the frequent filter changes I'd have to make. I tried the Aquarium Pharmeceuticals Tap Water Filter but I only got 20 gallons from a cartridge!... very bad.

But the Water Store water has worked pretty well so far since its right next to the grocery store so I don't have to make special trips or anything. Its not perfect but it gets the job done... hehe. Good luck!

 

[medge00]

i use peat and co2 on my ten gal and easily get a ph of 6.8 (my taps ph is like 8.8) i'd give the peat a chance, see what happens. i still use RO in my 30, but the peat makes it so i don't have to buy as much water. besides, c02 should help. yes, your water is very hard, but why not try peat and co2 to see how it works? worth a try.

many people use peat below their other substrate. suposedly this gets everything going quickly for the plants and acts as an additional source of nutrients. you may not need it with part flourite. root tabs may help too. jobes work for me, i found em for $1.25 at osh.

 

[William]

I was going to do Co2.

But I was going to wait for about two months for the tank matured before I added the Co2 machine and plants.

 

[millipede]

your tank...

I don't know a ton about it but it sounds like things will work out for you. Are you going to decorate or just plant? A coconut shell or two would look good....

 

[medge00]

i suggest planting it heavily right from the get go. if you start out with a ton of stem plants you'll avoid algae as the plants will suck up the nutrients.

 

[William]

There won't be no nutrients for them to suck up, and they will die if I put them in right off the bat.

 

[medge00]

i've read bunches of stuff that suggests planting nearly everything at once. you can still add nutrients (a wee bit) if you have full lighting, even if you don't start out with CO2. In fact, if you have any fish in there at all, all that fish poo will feed the plants. it worked for me when i redid my 10 gal. IMHO if you start everything from the beginning, CO2, light, nutrients (after about 2 weeks of planting) you'll be happy with how everything grows. the tank will still cycle, the plants will start to grow. its just what worked for me.

 

[patryuji]

What about that Carbo plus device? I thought I read that it will lower the kH of the water as it strips the CO2 out. Combine that with peat...and then enter in your other fish first before the rams to somewhat lower the ph a bit more.

 

[William]

i've read bunches of stuff that suggests planting nearly everything at once. you can still add nutrients (a wee bit) if you have full lighting, even if you don't start out with CO2. In fact, if you have any fish in there at all, all that fish poo will feed the plants. it worked for me when i redid my 10 gal. IMHO if you start everything from the beginning, CO2, light, nutrients (after about 2 weeks of planting) you'll be happy with how everything grows. the tank will still cycle, the plants will start to grow. its just what worked for me.

There isn't anything for the plants in a uncycled tank, They need the nitrates [ or was it nitrites? i forget ] that come from the cycle. and that takes somet time to be produced in a new tank, since theres no bacteria there to generate it off the bat.

Not only that but the high levels of ammonia during a cycle can hurt the plants.


I know what I'm talking about, I'm looking at a tank right now that has gone through that. I had a tank break on me and I had to move all the plants to an uncycled tank, and they are all on the verge of death with little foilage left.

 

[Allivymar]

Nitrogenous waste IS fertilizer; check the stuff one gives to terrestrial plants and you'll see the #1 listed ingredient is usually nitrites/nitrates. I believe even the amounts of ammonia found in cycling tank is used by the plants. Double check Rex's webpage for more info. I wonder if the shock of the change is what's doing your poor plants in William, not the ammonia levels.

That being said, one can certainly start a planted tank prior to fish. A good substrate, CO2, enough lighting and some ferts will provide most of what the plants need initially. I started my 15g planted last weekend. The CO2 thingie went in Monday. I'll be picking up more plants tomorrow. The fish may go in this coming weekend IF the pH drops enough. If not, I'll wait. But the plants already in there are fine and are already starting to send off new leaves.

 

[medge00]

hey i'm not trying to be argumentative. i've got a nasty sinus infection and have been rather grumpy.

if you have any fish in your tank, their poo will fertilize your plants. plants help eliminate some nitrates and ammonia. many plant keepers find that by planting everything right away, the nitrogen cycle is considerably shorter if even apparent at all. starting co2 right away will also help your plants grow.

if you have success with your method go for it. both are just different ways to do things, both work.

 

[medge00]

from Rex Grigg's FAQ:

" Then it was discovered that by setting up a tank and filling it full of fast growing stem plants that one could add a medium to large fish load all at once and never see the traditional ammonia or nitrite spikes. The reason for this is simple. The plants love ammonia. So it never gets a chance to kill the fish. Also the plants come covered in beneficial bacteria that will start the traditional cycle. "

 

[Christmasfish]

Whaaat? 8O

I have a few fully Dutch tanks here and...
Plants DO NOT Looove ammonia!
They can use a trace amounts, but a big spike will burn leaves!!
(which equals dead debris adding more ammonia and nitrite spikes)

Plants cannot allow you to just add a bunch of fish..(unless there is a not so mentioned high speed mechanical filtration device in the background of this picture)

Plants DO NOT loooove poop. They love pooop that is broken down by bacteria. Ever put fertilizer on plants direct on accident...remember what happed? The guy next door with layer of fertilizer on his now DEAD lawn?
Most fertilizers are broken down before sold. Not straight from the animal!
Plants also have a heavy requirement for Nitrous product. NitrAtes and then NitrItes. That means bacteria


You believe all that on plants..back it up with a Dutch tank..and we'll see how many fish can be supported!! Or how much work versus esthetic plants do for a contained aquactic enviroment. you cannot count the mega filter of nature and how it interacts.

By the way..parameters for Dutch 10 gallon #1
Ammonia0
NitrIte0
Nitrates 0...and may creep up to 0.07 before clean/change
Temp 78 kept slightly lower than other tanks to avoid the plants stealing water oxygen instead of adding it.

pH raised from tap 7.0 to a 7.4 then droppeed slowly to 6.8 during first week. Water changes go from 7.0 to 6.8 now. It is tested 3 times a week.

And no green algae, but the silicates left by most plants makes diatomous algae start to develop if you are not ridgid in cleaning schedule.
Plants can do nothing for Pre-Cycling at all. And the wrong plants will wither and maybe die completley (which takes your parameter into overload!).
You need to fiddle with lighting and their care. Most aquatic plants require the same pH as most tropical fish. Too soft or hard and its slimy vegetation city.

Plants are great and add to your fishes health by giving them a more natural enviroment. And they have other benefits..but you cant just throw a bunch of plants in and then load up on fish!!!
And I won't let it stand for a new aquarist to take literally without putting some burn into the painted sunny day. :?
I am newly reborn to the hobby and modern practices..
but I know how to keep Dutch tanks and I know my labyrinth fish well.
Even the Griggs fact you quoted say A med-lg fish load... Even ghost shrimp and snails are considered bio load. But does he mean a med to large group of fish? (Or A as in single medium to large fish? You can do that anyway. With a nearly bare tank!) (and did you read his tips completely? Did you miss the addition of BioSpira?!)
And because it worked well a couple times for one-two people doesn't mean it should be a common practice.
No more than tropical fish in a cup!

edit: PS 10gal Dutch #2 is having the parameters waver becuase some of the fish are approaching adult size. They are being moved next wekend.
edit: spellcheck misses em!

 

[William]

accident

 

[medge00]

hmm... i don't recall suggesting he add 100 fish, i was thinking a few hardy ones to cycle. my tanks may be overfilled slightly, but i don't have aggression issues and my nitrites and ammonia are always 0. my plants are doing great. I had a little hair algae in the beginning of my 30 gal. but that has since gone away with CO2. I've never had algae in my 10 gal.

yes, i did read rex's FAQ completely. bio spira isn't necessary, its just an option. I don't keep fish in a cup. thanks for making sure.

here's Chuck Gadd's website:
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_newtank.htm

he also suggests planting a lot from the beginning, with CO2 and everything, then putting in fish. again, one way of doing things. not the be all end all solution. i just relate what has worked for me, and what i've read.

you don't need to add fertilizers on the 1st day. i never suggested that. some say it takes 2 weeks. some say it takes 4. in part it depends on your water. from the planted tank: "It is common practice to allow the plants to get established in your tank for about 4 weeks or so before they show a need for fertilizers." http://www.plantedtank.net/basics.html you're right, adding a ton of fertilizers would burn plants.


i might be newer to some in this hobby, but i've done my research.

 

[Christmasfish]

Not saying you didn't research..nor that what you do doesn't work for you...
I think I even said that the first time around.
But I am pointing out all the cons while the subject is fresh. And a single now sucessful aquarist's experience does not make for quoting out of context in a thread meant for all level aquarists.
What a total novice will get from your post is "I can throw a bunch of plants in, so I throw a bunch of fish in without worry..because plants EAT ammonia up"

Who can deny a total new person wouldn't see it that way...... :?

And despite a sentence to the contrary.. I think you may have an argumentative streak after all...or you wouldn't need to make the sacastic cup-fish remark. My comment was pointed at bad common practices,And immediately followed that paragraph. Do you even HAVE a betta to feel I may have meant you? or were you just being "witty".

I understand having a debating streak..usually I reserve mine for something I feel strongly over or have experience in...
or for replying to ill conceived little jabs like the"thank you for checking" comment

 

[AtodaJ]

Hehehe... settle down peeps... little too hot in here.

Plants don't like anything in excessive quantities. That is a simple rule for anything though isn't it? (i.e. plants, fish, etc.) I think we can all agree on that one.

With that said, plants do help to remove all the bad products of fish waste including ammonia. From all my research I would be inclined to agree that the best way to start a fully planted tank is to fully plant it right off the bat. You can even keep it "fish free" until you are satisfied that your plants are doing "ok". Thats right... you don't "need" fish for a planted tank as long as you put in a quality fertilizer in the appropriate amounts at the appropriate times as directed. I've seen some really beautiful plant only tanks by the way.

Personally I'd drop in half my bio load along with the plants. If you keep up with your testing and water changes you should notice a much softer cycle as Rex indicated in some of his plant posts. If you want to go for a full bioload then I'd drop in Bio Spira and you'll have no worries. Just don't overstock the tank and watch your parameters during cycling. I'm assuming you will have mechanical filtration.... I haven't seen a truly heavily planted tank without filtration but there's always a first I suppose.

Co2 combined with Peat very well may get your PH down to the appropriate levels but that doesn't address how hard your water is. As such I'd still go for r/o water if you want to breed Rams. You said you wanted an optimal environment for them to breed and that is in much softer water than you will be housing them in. Good luck and I'm looking forward to some killer Ram baby pictures!

 

[smilla4]

I was reading posts from another forum and saw that Walstad had mentioned she puts the plants and the fish in the same day. But then she uses dirt layered over with gravel. Supposedly the dirt contains nitrifying bacteria...

I thought that was intriguing (but then I'm pretty new to all of this...).

 

[Christmasfish]

heh..Orange County...
Now I will always think of that silly movie.......

87% of my family are like uh, all in the Valley like eh, ya kno?
to the max dude..


Heh.."Dutch" Tanks are substrate, plants and fish if you like....and a strict water change schedule. No filtration..maybe an air stome if ya like. I haven't personaly kept one larger than 20 with 10 fish and had it keep good readings constant.
Learned it from an old Dutch guy....................jkg
My grandfather was a serious fishkeeper and importer. Labyrinth fish and S. American species were who I cared for to get allowance.

 

[medge00]

my betta lives in 2.5 gallon mini bow. his name is nomen (short for nomenclature) i was explaining water chemistry of my tanks to my roomie majoring in bio-chem and we should have an appropiate name for him. his water chemistry is pretty good. he will soon be joined by 2 ghost shrimp to be named Pipette and Beaker.

arguing makes me tired. William, i hope your tank goes well for you... you have a lot of opinions here. i'm sure you already know what a great resource AA is, here are some others for you enjoyment (you've probably seen em):
www.aquabotanic.com (particularly wet thumbs forum)
www.plantedtank.net
www.plantgeek.net
www.brainyday.com/jared/aquarium/info.htm
www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/

Tom Barr is out there somewhere, he also has some good info. Hopefully all those newbies out there will take a look too. Reading everything i can is a good way to learn more and do something aquarium related, esp. when there's nothing left to tinker with that day.