Some Nitrate experiments I ran a long time ago. Part 1

[jarrod0987]

Some Nitrate experiments I ran a long time ago. Part 1-4

(EDIT: Some folks who wish to try this have advised me they don't understand how much to add how often. That info is in the first link. It is an advanced topic with risk involved so I have to include all the details. If I leave things out it could cause problems. Sorry guys. It's an advanced subject. Google is your friend.)

This one is going to be a long and controversial one folks. I ran this experiment around 2011. I lost the original data on my computer but I did find the note I wrote to myself while it was going on to provide some of the data. No fish were present during the initial experiments. They have been present since with no ill effects on them.


So the purpose of this experiment was to find a way to reduce Nitrates. Nitrates are not toxic in low concentrations. Some people say they are toxic above 80 ppm and some say not. I think we can all agree in a fish only system with a lot of fish, nitrate can skyrocket quickly unless you do regular large water changes. Which is a pain in the ***, even with a python. It is also a time issue. So if there was another way to reduce nitrates, that could space out our water changes.

Some of you may be familiar with a product that is basically an ion ex changer for Nitrates. Basically a marked up and repacked Purolite A520E. It is a nice product because you can buy a smaller amount then having to buy a huge bag for a big price. It exchanges salt with nitrate in your aquarium. Then you take it out and recharge it. The salt is not harmful in low quantities to fish. However, chlorides can be harsh on some plants I'm told. It's also a little bit of money and you have to get the water to flow through it to get it to work right etc.

There is also dentirifying products like pumice stones and nitrate coils. They provide denitrification zones fro bacteria. They do work if you get the flow rate just right. The coils can take up a lot of room. I prefer the pumice method. Still it is not the holy grail. There can be some nitrate left over unless you add large denitrate areas to your system. This also adds maintenance time and expense. I wanted a easier solution. There is a bottled product on the market that has been shown on YouTube to make the nitrates go away. A before and after nitrate test was shown. However, I am pretty sure this is a temporary thing. The chemical added breaks down after a day or 2 and the nitrate comes back.

I wanted an easier solution. I found one on the salt water side. I brought it back to the freshwater side and got it working in a practical way. I also believe I solved the mystery of cloudy water during new tank syndrome. It comes from bacteria alright. But not the ones I thought. I was also able to get large amount's of nitrate down to absolute zero for penny's and only the usual vacuuming of gravel. Stay Tuned for Part 2 I will tell you everything.


Edit....I forgot to add Nitrate is largely responsible for GHA (if it is out of balance with Phosphate) and is a contributor to algae.

 

[LayzorBeams]

O my!! This could be liiiife changin'.

For real though, I'm interested. Less WC is a possibility? Hit me uuuupppp


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[jarrod0987]

Part 2

So what is the secret you ask? Carbon Dosing.

What we do is add a tiny amount of a carbon source such as sugar, vinegar, or even vodka to the water. The hetero tropic bacteria (not the nitrifying ones) eat this up so they reproduce like crazy. They take the nitrate and a super small amount of phosphate with them.

You cannot add too much all at once or the bacteria will work very fast and double very fast. They will eat all the oxygen up and the fish will suffocate. You have to go slow. YOU MUST HAVE GOOD AERATION. If the water gets cloudy do a water change. This is not because your fish is in immediate danger of suffocation, just that it prevents things from getting that point before it happens. Trust me I used an oxygen test kit during this experiment and I did not have any problems because I went slow. The test turned out not to be necessary. Freshwater does hold a lot more oxygen then the salt water in this article.

I recommend this article for first timers.
Vodka Dosing by 'Genetics' and 'Stony_Corals' - Reefkeeping.com

If you want a cheaper solution you can use everyday white sugar but you must be super careful. It is very concentrated. Coral keepers have found white sugar is bad for there corals health and they use other sources of carbon now. In a fish only system there is no worry about this.

Here is one article:
Sugar dosing works!!.. No mor water changes due to Nitrates!


Now...Many of the nay sayers will tell you carbon dosing doesn't work in fresh water. Here is why. It produces a black sludge. I suspect it's dead bacteria. At any rate...if it is not removed the nitrates come back out of it as it breaks down. Right back into your tank. In salt water systems they use a protein skimmer to get rid of it and so this is not an issue. Skimmers don't work in fresh water systems.

You need another way to remove it.
In my experiments it created a black sludge in the bottom of the tank. Guess what. Water treatment facilities add carbon to get rid of there Nitrates too. They also get a black sludge. It settles to the bottom of allowed to. So I gravel vacuum it out. Done. Another way would be to use a bare glass bottom approach and use power head to keep the stuff off the bottom and suspended. Then use a mechanical filter. I suspect it would just clog to quick.

My actual experiment was to take a 5 gal tank with a 10 gal rated bio wheel style power filter and do a fish less cycle. After that I had plenty of nitrates. I started the sugar dosing and the nitrates started coming down. I did that for weeks. Works fine. Just to see if I could do it all at once I repeated the experiment but added all the sugar I recorded using before all at once. The water turned to milk color (which means the fish probably would have suffocated) but in 24 hours the water was clear and the nitrates were gone. Black sediment that was not sticky and easily vacuumed up remained in the bottom. Phosphate did not really get any lower. I did have a little ion my tap water.

I realized the water did not get cloudy during the fish less cycle. Only after I added carbon. When I do this for real tanks the cloudy water doesn't come until after I add the fish and of course fish food. That is where the carbon comes from. I no longer believe the cloudy water comes from the nitrifiers reproducing in most cases. It comes from the hetero tropes when the carbon source starts coming in such as fish food or poop. They do double much faster. Makes sense to me.

I have used carbon dosing in fish only systems ever sense. Keeping nitrates at 0 really helps to prevent green algae such as GHA. It doesn;t help as much with Cyano (Blue Green) for 2 reasons. 1 is that Cyano can get it's Nitrogen straight from the air. 2 is that Cyano seems to occur is systems that have too much phosphate in ratio to the nitrate. It is for the reason that carbon dosing sometimes causes a cyano outbreak. The solution is to use less carbon and leave a bit of nitrate or to use something like lanthanum chloride or GFO to remove the phosphate.

One last thing I noticed is that if you add too much carbon (or sometimes anyways) you may get strange looking little gelatinous or fungus looking masses of bacteria. This seems to be what the bacteria does when there is a lot of carbon around but not enough nitrogen or phosphorus. Just cut back on the dosing. As long as nitrate is till going down then it just takes a little longer. When nitrate is at 0 then you experiment with cutting your dosage back until it starts climbing again. This is your maintenance dose. It will change as your amount of fish or there size changes.

In part 3 I will post some numbers.

 

[jarrod0987]

Part 3

OK so I admit I was less scientific back then, I thought I would remember everything.
I should have written more detailed notes.

I did write down a few things. I wondered how much 50 proof vodka or sugar it took to get rid of 1 ppm of nitrate etc. Not all at once , that is too dangerous. Just over time.

The general rule of thumb I came up with for Vodka was this:
Gallons of actual water (not tank size) x ppm nitrate present.
Take that number and divide it by 3.
That is the approximate number of ml of 50 proof vodka you need.
AGAIN!! NOT ALL AT ONCE. Unless there are no fish
If you have super high levels of nitrate then do some big water changes first to get it down to a more reasonable number. Then start the carbon dosing.

For Sugar I estimate:
0.03 Grams of sugar per 1ppm nitrate per 1 gal.

Sugar is supper concentrated and there is a serious danger of suffocation if you add too much.
I found in my case that 0.02 grams per 8.5 gals is defiantly safe and shows no sign of cloudy water with very good aeration.

That is over 24 hours with good aeration. Increase at your own risk and watch for cloudy water. Mildly cloudy water is still safe but action should be taken in case it suddenly gets worse.

The only way to get a dosage that small is to make a sugar water solution with a gram scale. Google is your friend

Many have back-lashed against this approach and tell you that you need to find the source of the nitrates instead of using a band aid. That's easy. Gravel too deep or unvacuumed. Filter not cleaned often enough, or too many fish. So what. Maybe I like having a lot of fish and I don't want to have to do a 50% water change every day to keep the nitrates down and the GHA away. What about that trolls? I know this post will be subjected to major attack. Don't care. It works. I did it. You can do it too. Don't even need to prove it. The internet is full of many reports of many people doing it. It spawned the bio pellet movement which has been a major innovation in the salt water side in the last 5 years. Also made the protein skimmer manufacturers sales increase to be sure.

Bring on the flames Just don't be to shocked when I ignore your nasty PM's

Added more important Info in Part 4

 

[jarrod0987]

Part 4

UPDATE: Something we were always afraid of in the past is that if the water got to slightly cloudy then the oxygen was low. That was bad of course. After much playing around with Electronic oxygen sensor such as this one:
PINPOINT® II Oxygen Monitor – American Marine Inc
I own this and use it in salt water tanks.

As well as color changing tests for fresh water, It is not a problem. The oxygen was fine. That does not mean that it might not suddenly get really cloudy if you had added too much carbon so I like to error on the side of caution and do a 20-50% change of I think the water is more then just a little hazy. The percent is just based on how comfortable I feel with how sensitive my fish are to water changes. Every species is different. With Cichlids and goldfish I can do 90% if the temp matches. Sometimes I loose a few cardinals or neon's as a 20%

Again, freshwater holds way more oxygen than salt water. So if you stick to the salt water recommenced dosages of carbon, you will defiantly be very safe in fresh water. Also this process produces a lot of acid from the bacterial action which is normal. So monitor your ph and if possible alkalinity. Keep those dosages small and spread out over time. Baking soda can help if you need it. There are plenty of articles on this too. Google it if you need it. I didn't need to use any.

 

[LayzorBeams]

Ok so i got lost at sometime after the first post.

Wut?

So, i cannot compute the stuff you are saying, so i would like it if you could pit this into i formation relevant to me and the majority of freshwater keepers in a somewhat less complicated fashion.

I have a 75 gallon, which probablh ends up with like 65-70 gallons of water once you consider sand and decor.

If i was using vodka, how much would i need? Lets say i have 15 ppm of nitrates, as an example.

Do i add vodka/sugar every day? How much per day while i need to do it? How effective is this? Is this strategy used by others? Is this ok in a tank that is moderately to heavily stocked with fish? If i use sugar will the fish eat it? What is the best way to add it to the water? Is it dangerous to do if nitrates at 0? If done for extended periods will this change water parameters (hardness, ammonia, and nitrites specifically)? Do the bacteria die and form "sludge" quickly? Will i have to vacuum them daily? If i stop using your system will nitrates build faster than usual? Do these things affect PH? Will Batman come to my brothers birthday party?

That last one was a joke. But i have a lot of questions... Rapid fire mode!!


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[LayzorBeams]

However, i quite agree.

Btw i just re-read it all.

I would like to do a bit less WC for my tanks.

And i have no problem evolving away from what i currently do to fit new techniques and styles if the show benefit, work, and are safe.

I also answered a few of my own questions while re-reading.

But please answer them!!

If you cant tell I'm a fan of thorough explanations...


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[jarrod0987]

Ok so i got lost at sometime after the first post.

Wut?

So, i cannot compute the stuff you are saying, so i would like it if you could pit this into i formation relevant to me and the majority of freshwater keepers in a somewhat less complicated fashion.

I have a 75 gallon, which probablh ends up with like 65-70 gallons of water once you consider sand and decor.

If i was using vodka, how much would i need? Lets say i have 15 ppm of nitrates, as an example.

Do i add vodka/sugar every day? How much per day while i need to do it? How effective is this? Is this strategy used by others? Is this ok in a tank that is moderately to heavily stocked with fish? If i use sugar will the fish eat it? What is the best way to add it to the water? Is it dangerous to do if nitrates at 0? If done for extended periods will this change water parameters (hardness, ammonia, and nitrites specifically)? Do the bacteria die and form "sludge" quickly? Will i have to vacuum them daily? If i stop using your system will nitrates build faster than usual? Do these things affect PH? Will Batman come to my brothers birthday party?

That last one was a joke. But I have a lot of questions... Rapid fire mode!!


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The short version is vodka or sugar added to tank makes nitrate go away as long as you also vacuum the gravel. Keep on eye out for cloudy water which means to you added too much. Oxygen may start to get low. Also monitor PH. All the dosing info is in the first link in the first article.

I sent you a PM

 

[LayzorBeams]

Ok thanks man!! No fiery comments of rage coming from me...

Yet ?...


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[jarrod0987]

Ok thanks man!! No fiery comments of rage coming from me...

Yet ?...


Sent from my iPod touch using Aquarium Advice

Santa Clause is watchin you!

 

[LayzorBeams]

Nooooo i wanna get mah presents.


Sent from my iPod touch using Aquarium Advice

 

[jarrod0987]

"So, i cannot compute the stuff you are saying, so i would like it if you could pit this into i formation relevant to me and the majority of freshwater keepers in a somewhat less complicated fashion."

Sorry, but it is a somewhat advanced topic. I can't leave out information that may be needed because there is some risk involved with overdosing.

"If i was using vodka, how much would i need? Lets say i have 15 ppm of nitrates, as an example.

Do i add vodka/sugar every day? How much per day while i need to do it? "
"
It's all explained in the first link.

"How effective is this?"

Very. 0ppm or any other target is possible with dosage adjustments.


"Is this strategy used by others?"

By many people for about 5 years now. Much is written and there are YouTube Videos. That is mostly salt water stuff but as I described it works in fresh water too.


"Is this ok in a tank that is moderately to heavily stocked with fish?"

Yes

"If i use sugar will the fish eat it?"

No, it dissolves.

"what is the best way to add it to the water?"

Make a solution using a gram scale. If you don't know how then google is your friend.


" Is it dangerous to do if nitrates at 0?"

No, but there would be no purpose. We do this because it removes Nitrates.

"If done for extended periods will this change water parameters (hardness, ammonia, and nitrites specifically)?"

None of these but it can effect Alkalinity and PH if you do too much to fast or don;t change the water. I used Crushed Coral to make sure I didn't have such an issue.

"Do the bacteria die and form "sludge" quickly?"
No, it is slow over time. Removed by vacuuming.


"Will i have to vacuum them daily?"
No. Once a week, once a month. Up too you.


"If i stop using your system will nitrates build faster than usual?"

No, they just go back to normal. It is not my system. The Germans probably came up with it. They discover all the cool stuff in aquariums.

"Do these things affect PH?"

They can as I stated before. Monitor your pH. Use Baking soda or crushed coral if needed. Water change swill help too.

" Will Batman come to my brothers birthday party?"

If he does I want to know what present he gives. Maybe some cool bat shaped throwing stars?

"But i have a lot of questions... Rapid fire mode!!"

I love to answer questions but please folks. Read the links before asking. I don't want to have to re write what has already been answered over and over. This method is well established now. Only difference is we can't use a protein skimmer so we have to remove the sludge a different way.

 

[gilpi]

Removing myself from this discussion

 

[jarrod0987]

When referring to fresh water, I'm not sure how this relates to it, there are safer easier ways to bring nitrates down, not to mention a partial water change that no Vodka or any other additive can replace and besides the risks and work of Vodka dosing way out weight the benefits.




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Safer is true but it's not that unsafe if you follow the directions. Easier, depends on how much water you have to change how often. How easy is it to add a few drops form a bottle versus changing 20 gallons of water you have to dechlorinate first? It is also true the water change Brings back in Alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium. A handful of crushed coral does that too. Anyways...In a fish only system these things are not depleted so there is no need to replace them I am talking about fish only systems. If you are referring to some other compound please be more specific.
Many here with large tanks are sick of massive water changes all the time. This is a way to spread them out. There is one point that I did not address. This way is MUCH CHEAPER then using many of the other products if using sugar.

 

[gilpi]

Removing myself from this discussion

 

[Mebbid]

The science behind all this is sound. However, i feel its important to note that this is useless for planted tanks which tbh is most of the freshwater community.

You also run into problems with high levels of flow not allowing the black scum to settle.

Its interesting scientifically, but imho you are sacrificing tank stability to get out of doing water changes. Phosphate, pH, tds, oxygen levels, calcium, magnesium, etc are all being placed at risk of imbalance to save 10 - 15 minutes out of your week which you have to spend siphoning out black goo anyways.

 

[jarrod0987]

"The science behind all this is sound. However, i feel its important to note that this is useless for planted tanks which tbh is most of the freshwater community. "

I would go so far as to say it's a negative for a planted tank. I do not agree that most freshwater tanks are planted however.

"You also run into problems with high levels of flow not allowing the black scum to settle."

It can happen. If that is the design then use a filter sock to remove the suspended particles. Most of the freshwater tanks I have seen are reasonably low flow. Or no power heads at all.


"Its interesting scientifically, but imho you are sacrificing tank stability to get out of doing water changes."

I have not had this problem at all. Usually, On a tank someone has neglected, I do a few big changes until I get the nitrates down to a normal number then I start the process. I have no problems with instability with the use of Crushed coral and small amounts I'm dosing.


" Phosphate, pH, tds, oxygen levels, calcium, magnesium, etc are all being placed at risk of imbalance to save 10 - 15 minutes out of your week which you have to spend siphoning out black goo anyways"

Lets take these one at a time. Remember, I said this was for fish only tanks.

Phosphate = Not an issue , take it all away in fish only system.
Ph. Calcium, and Magnesium = Hasn't happened to me. CC just in case. Needs no maintenance.

TDS. TDS is just a measure of everything both good and bad in your water. It is not useful for aquarium testing. Only for RO DI water. Perhaps you meant hardness? That would be Calcium, Magnesium, and Alkalinity. Again..Crushed Coral. In my case...I usually don't even need it.

Oxygen = A lot of things will mess up your tank if you overdose. I have made very sure the dosages are safe. Even 2 or 3 x overdose in freshwater is very safe. I verified this with my oxygen meter and tests.

It takes more the 10-15 minutes to do a water change on a large tank. I do advocate for water change but not every day. That's just to much. The black sediment I saw was more like a dust and not a sticky goo. I vacuum the gravel as that IS my water change so it's a non issue. I feel like a hobbyist should do that anyways. The easier way still is bare bottom and just use a siphon tubing to clean it off while doing the water change. This does make me realize something. It would not work well with a sand bottom.

I know not everyone will want to use this method. That's fine. it's not even suited for all situations. However, there are plenty of people with massive 50 or 100 gal tanks that have no plants and a whole lot of fish or a few really big fish. This can defiantly help them. take for example Cichlid tanks using PH buffering substrate like Dolomite or that Crushed shell substrate they sell for cichlids. It's perfect for that.

 

[Mebbid]

Most freshwater tanks in this community are planted. Overall considering the whole scope of the hobby, planted tanks definitely dont make up the majority.

Buffering with crushed coral is a remedy to a problem. A healthy aquarium assuming a good source of tap water shouldnt need crushed coral. There is also the buffering effect it has on the water making it undesirable for many fish that we keep.

I absolutely mean tds. It has a much greater impact that most aquarists realize. The ph shock that is often referred to isnt due to ph, but rather osmotic shock caused by rapid fluctuation of dissolved solids. If it were solely a ph problem we would see fish struggling in planted tanks with pressurized co2.

Some reading http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...al-solids-tss-tds-freshwater-aquarium-122027/

Using a python it takes a matter of minutes to do a water change on my tanks. Its a half an hour process for me to change the water in a 55g, 40g, 20g, and 10g.

 

[jarrod0987]

Oh...BTW. I'm not the only one using this. I'm just the only one telling you how you can do it yourself really cheap.

EasyBalance Aquarium Water Treatment Maintenance | Tetra Aquarium

This product uses bio degradable plastic as a carbon source. Says so right on the bottle. Also Buffers PH. that means carbonates and/or Bicarbonates as I already mentioned. And lastly it gets rid of phosphates. Which means lanthanum chloride most likely. I believe it says right on the bottle it's purpose is to spread out the water changes a but more while still balancing the aquarium. Big tanks with no plants and heavy loads are what these products are for. They sure are nice in those situations. I have found in this side of the hobby there is almost a religious belief that any kind of additive is bad and that water changes should fix everything if you just do enough of them. Besides the fact that this is not always true...big ones constantly are a PITA. With my method or these or other products that get rid of nitrates they are not necessary as often. If a person is going to recommend a water change there needs to be a specific compound they are trying to add or remove. This superstitious belief there are mysterious unknown substances in our water is bull. These things are known and documented well.

 

[jarrod0987]

I absolutely mean tds. It has a much greater impact that most aquarists realize. The ph shock that is often referred to isnt due to ph, but rather osmotic shock caused by rapid fluctuation of dissolved solids. If it were solely a ph problem we would see fish struggling in planted tanks with pressurized co2.

It's a fair point. I still think, GH/KH is better then just TDS.

Will read your link right now.

Using a python it takes a matter of minutes to do a water change on my tanks. Its a half an hour process for me to change the water in a 55g, 40g, 20g, and 10g.

I am skeptical of this but it could happen. Many don;t have a python though. Took me 25 minutes to do a 90% on a 75 and another 20 minutes to do a 20% on a 10 and a 30 with a python. They are awesome. However...How long does it take for you to add a few drops to each one?