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Old 02-07-2006, 08:13 AM   #1
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Squirt and Dump? Vs. Float question for acclimation

I have been doing a lot of reading and understand the squirt and dump method is quite good for freshwater fish. but my question is, is this just for people buying fish or transporting fish for long periods where ammonia, co2 can have a long time to build up in the bag? I drive 5 minutes from LFS to home, so the fish don't have a lot of time to create co2 and ammonia to create radical PH changes. but if the PH is just a little different in my tank as the LFS tank, then i am stressing the fish when i dump them straight in. the reason I ask is I had a very large Cardinal tetra mortality rate when i bought a small school recently, over 50% I used the squirt and dump method... did I make a mistake?

The apisto's I bought at the same time and also squirted and dumped look great and are all over the tank exploring and eating with out any shyness or signs of distress.

Just looking to not make the same mistake twice.

Thanks all
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Old 02-07-2006, 08:40 AM   #2
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The reason for the acclimation is to slowly acclimate the new arrivals to your water. The temp of the bag will be different from the temp in the tank. Also, the pH and Nitrate readings will not be the same with both tanks. I don't think I am understanding your "squirt and dump" method. What is it?
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Old 02-07-2006, 09:37 AM   #3
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I think the OP is referring to draining most of the bag water into something other than the tank, and then dumping the new fish into the tank. This is extremely stressful to the fish for a variety of reasons, some that were already mentioned.

pH will be different (although since you live so close, it might be very close)

temp will definately be different (normally LFS's keep their tanks much cooler than they should be due to heating/electrical costs, and slower metabolism/fighting)

shock of new surroundings (they need time to acclimate to their tankmates and hiding spots, they can see through the bag)

hardness of the water (not so much a factor, but for some species of fish this can play a role in stress)

The whole purpose of the acclimation is to give the fish time to slowly be adjusted to ALL of these factors. They will not contaminate their water in under an hour (you have a 5min ride), especially since if you are doing the acclimation method properly (let bag sit to get to similar temp for a good 10-15min, then ADD some tank water, let sit), you are constantly increasing the volume of the bag and thus lessening the concentration of toxins in the bag.

I think the only way the squirt and dump method would work, would be transferring from 2 identical tank setups with the same water supply and setup, AND only if the handler is really rough during additions of new water (like dropping the bag on the floor, shaking it, etc). Otherwise there is no better way to keep the mortality level low.

justin
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Old 02-07-2006, 10:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Enigma
I think the OP is referring to draining most of the bag water into something other than the tank, and then dumping the new fish into the tank. This is extremely stressful to the fish for a variety of reasons, some that were already mentioned.
I was under the impression that this was the best way to do, I was told never to add water from the bag to my tank. I bring the fish home and place him in my tank, bag and all, for approximately 20 minutes. Then slowly I add a little tank water at a time to the bag and let him get used to the water. Then I net him and place him in my tank. I know this part is stressful but I would be very afraid to add any of the water from the bag into my tank.
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Old 02-07-2006, 10:47 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Enigma
I think the OP is referring to draining most of the bag water into something other than the tank, and then dumping the new fish into the tank. This is extremely stressful to the fish for a variety of reasons, some that were already mentioned.
I was under the impression that this was the best way to do, I was told never to add water from the bag to my tank. I bring the fish home and place him in my tank, bag and all, for approximately 20 minutes. Then slowly I add a little tank water at a time to the bag and let him get used to the water. Then I net him and place him in my tank. I know this part is stressful but I would be very afraid to add any of the water from the bag into my tank.
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Old 02-07-2006, 11:14 AM   #6
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Well its something I read at the Krib (which is always spot on info) and I have seen it in other places on the net and people swear by the squirt and dump method of acclimatization.

here is the link to the Krib
http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/acclimatizing.html

It makes for intersting reading if nothing else, enjoy.
"Traditional wisdom has it that you must float fish bags in your tank
for thirty minutes, mix bag water with tank water, and then tip the bag
over and allow the fishes to swim out on their own. I prefer, however, a
radical departure from this technique that has been successfully championed
by FISHNET member and aquacultural chemist John Kuhns. John's "dose and
dump technique," which aims to get the fish out of the bag and into the
tank as soon as possible, seems preferableany time there are not dramatic
temperature differences between bag and tank water. The method is simple:
Add a little quirt of NovAqua water conditioner to the bag, add the
appropriate dose to thee tank, remove the fishes from the bag, and dump
them into the tank."
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Old 02-07-2006, 01:23 PM   #7
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Sounds dangerous to me.

Let's put you an a plane to Siberia. You're all comfortable (for a limited time) on the flight, but after several hours, you're feeling stuffy and tense. There's no food or entertainment on the flight, and the turbulence and noise has been awful. Dreadful. Frankly, your ready to vomit, but can't because you haven't had anything to eat. Once you finally land, the big, burly flight attendant pours a bottle of Vodka over your head, picks you up, and throws you out the door. No coat. No warning, into the cold dark of the deepst, most primitive forests in Siberia where you can see Tigers and Bears peering through the thick growth.

Naw, I'd rather be acclimatized slowly.
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Old 02-07-2006, 01:30 PM   #8
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I have a really tough time with the quote you posted of, "which aims to get the fish out of the bag and into the tank as soon as possible, seems preferableany time there are not dramatic temperature differences between bag and tank water."

This is like saying, "I can dump you into space as long as the temperature is the same as your used to!", too bad about that lack of atmosphere/radiation/no gravity. It seems like they are being short-sighted in only taking into account 1 aspect of a tanks conditions.

Having not referenced this NovAqua water conditioner, since it is added to the tank and the bag, it probably buffers the water so it is similar in pH and maybe hardness. My concern then would be 1. what kind of shock will it have on the fish when added to the bag, 2. what will it do to the current fish in the tank. Say the tank is naturally at 6.5, all the current animals are used to it, and it is very soft water. Now you add this magic chemical and it instantly buffers to 7.2 (biological pH), and a medium hardness. You have basically shocked all the fish in the tank, plus the fish in the bag. I'm going to dig a little deeper into this product and report back.

It has never been recommended on this site (that I've seen) to every tip the bag over and allow the fish to swim out. Most on this site want a minimum of bag water to get in the tank in case it harbors parasites/disease. I actually use a hybrid method that I developed since I'm not too great with a net.

I float the bag, do the water changes, then when getting ready to add the fish, I make a fist at the bottom of the bag which causes the fish to swim upwards. I continue to inch my way up until they are in a small amount of water, twist off the water under my hand (this has the majority of fish waste and any sand/substrate that would be in the bag), and then gently open the other side and drop the fish in. All this takes under a minute, and while a cup or so of water from the bag is introduced to the tank, I'd rather do that then attempt to net the fish in the bag and possibly stress or damage them.
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Old 02-07-2006, 01:44 PM   #9
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UPDATE:

After 5 minutes of research here is what I have concluded:

-John Kuhns is the inventor and thus profits from the sale of NovAqua (this alone should set alarms off folks!)

-He claims his product:

"The NovAqua is a water conditioner that removes chlorine, destroys chloramine (releasing the ammonia, of course), adds physiologically active electrolytes that are important for freshwater aquariums and ponds, aids in maintaining the alkalinity (acid-neutralizing capacity) of freshwater, and adds a tertiary (3-part) skin slime replacer.

I highlighted the parts I feel are very important. You are suddenly changing the electrolytes (salts basically, although I don't know what the heck a physiologically active electrolyte is....lol), maintaining the alkalinity is increasing the hardness of the water most likely, and the last part I have no comment on... So basically my whole point is that your a drastically changing the bag conditions with the new fish, but MORE IMPORTANTLY you are drastically changing the TANK parameters. You'll be stressing ALL of the fish to some degree, instead of slightly stressing the fish in the bag. From a scientific and a logical standpoint, it doesn't make sense.

But I'd sell it to you as well, if I was making money on it......

justin


EDIT:
Oh yeah I took this info from this interview I googled:

http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms...cle.php?aid=20
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Old 02-07-2006, 01:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGGorman
Sounds dangerous to me.

Let's put you an a plane to Siberia. You're all comfortable (for a limited time) on the flight, but after several hours, you're feeling stuffy and tense. There's no food or entertainment on the flight, and the turbulence and noise has been awful. Dreadful. Frankly, your ready to vomit, but can't because you haven't had anything to eat. Once you finally land, the big, burly flight attendant pours a bottle of Vodka over your head, picks you up, and throws you out the door. No coat. No warning, into the cold dark of the deepst, most primitive forests in Siberia where you can see Tigers and Bears peering through the thick growth.

Naw, I'd rather be acclimatized slowly.


Excellent illustration!


I always thought the reason for not dumping the LFS bagwater into your tank was possible contamination from disease/parasites... 8O
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