Squirt and Dump? Vs. Float question for acclimation

[icon149]

I have been doing a lot of reading and understand the squirt and dump method is quite good for freshwater fish. but my question is, is this just for people buying fish or transporting fish for long periods where ammonia, co2 can have a long time to build up in the bag? I drive 5 minutes from LFS to home, so the fish don't have a lot of time to create co2 and ammonia to create radical PH changes. but if the PH is just a little different in my tank as the LFS tank, then i am stressing the fish when i dump them straight in. the reason I ask is I had a very large Cardinal tetra mortality rate when i bought a small school recently, over 50% I used the squirt and dump method... did I make a mistake?

The apisto's I bought at the same time and also squirted and dumped look great and are all over the tank exploring and eating with out any shyness or signs of distress.

Just looking to not make the same mistake twice.

Thanks all

 

[Fishyfanatic]

The reason for the acclimation is to slowly acclimate the new arrivals to your water. The temp of the bag will be different from the temp in the tank. Also, the pH and Nitrate readings will not be the same with both tanks. I don't think I am understanding your "squirt and dump" method. What is it?

 

[7Enigma]

I think the OP is referring to draining most of the bag water into something other than the tank, and then dumping the new fish into the tank. This is extremely stressful to the fish for a variety of reasons, some that were already mentioned.

pH will be different (although since you live so close, it might be very close)

temp will definately be different (normally LFS's keep their tanks much cooler than they should be due to heating/electrical costs, and slower metabolism/fighting)

shock of new surroundings (they need time to acclimate to their tankmates and hiding spots, they can see through the bag)

hardness of the water (not so much a factor, but for some species of fish this can play a role in stress)

The whole purpose of the acclimation is to give the fish time to slowly be adjusted to ALL of these factors. They will not contaminate their water in under an hour (you have a 5min ride), especially since if you are doing the acclimation method properly (let bag sit to get to similar temp for a good 10-15min, then ADD some tank water, let sit), you are constantly increasing the volume of the bag and thus lessening the concentration of toxins in the bag.

I think the only way the squirt and dump method would work, would be transferring from 2 identical tank setups with the same water supply and setup, AND only if the handler is really rough during additions of new water (like dropping the bag on the floor, shaking it, etc). Otherwise there is no better way to keep the mortality level low.

justin

 

[LindaC]

I think the OP is referring to draining most of the bag water into something other than the tank, and then dumping the new fish into the tank. This is extremely stressful to the fish for a variety of reasons, some that were already mentioned.

I was under the impression that this was the best way to do, I was told never to add water from the bag to my tank. I bring the fish home and place him in my tank, bag and all, for approximately 20 minutes. Then slowly I add a little tank water at a time to the bag and let him get used to the water. Then I net him and place him in my tank. I know this part is stressful but I would be very afraid to add any of the water from the bag into my tank.

 

[LindaC]

I think the OP is referring to draining most of the bag water into something other than the tank, and then dumping the new fish into the tank. This is extremely stressful to the fish for a variety of reasons, some that were already mentioned.

I was under the impression that this was the best way to do, I was told never to add water from the bag to my tank. I bring the fish home and place him in my tank, bag and all, for approximately 20 minutes. Then slowly I add a little tank water at a time to the bag and let him get used to the water. Then I net him and place him in my tank. I know this part is stressful but I would be very afraid to add any of the water from the bag into my tank.

 

[icon149]

Well its something I read at the Krib (which is always spot on info) and I have seen it in other places on the net and people swear by the squirt and dump method of acclimatization.

here is the link to the Krib
http://www.thekrib.com/Apisto/acclimatizing.html

It makes for intersting reading if nothing else, enjoy.
"Traditional wisdom has it that you must float fish bags in your tank
for thirty minutes, mix bag water with tank water, and then tip the bag
over and allow the fishes to swim out on their own. I prefer, however, a
radical departure from this technique that has been successfully championed
by FISHNET member and aquacultural chemist John Kuhns. John's "dose and
dump technique," which aims to get the fish out of the bag and into the
tank as soon as possible, seems preferableany time there are not dramatic
temperature differences between bag and tank water. The method is simple:
Add a little quirt of NovAqua water conditioner to the bag, add the
appropriate dose to thee tank, remove the fishes from the bag, and dump
them into the tank."

 

[CGGorman]

Sounds dangerous to me.

Let's put you an a plane to Siberia. You're all comfortable (for a limited time) on the flight, but after several hours, you're feeling stuffy and tense. There's no food or entertainment on the flight, and the turbulence and noise has been awful. Dreadful. Frankly, your ready to vomit, but can't because you haven't had anything to eat. Once you finally land, the big, burly flight attendant pours a bottle of Vodka over your head, picks you up, and throws you out the door. No coat. No warning, into the cold dark of the deepst, most primitive forests in Siberia where you can see Tigers and Bears peering through the thick growth.

Naw, I'd rather be acclimatized slowly.

 

[7Enigma]

I have a really tough time with the quote you posted of, "which aims to get the fish out of the bag and into the tank as soon as possible, seems preferableany time there are not dramatic temperature differences between bag and tank water."

This is like saying, "I can dump you into space as long as the temperature is the same as your used to!", too bad about that lack of atmosphere/radiation/no gravity. It seems like they are being short-sighted in only taking into account 1 aspect of a tanks conditions.

Having not referenced this NovAqua water conditioner, since it is added to the tank and the bag, it probably buffers the water so it is similar in pH and maybe hardness. My concern then would be 1. what kind of shock will it have on the fish when added to the bag, 2. what will it do to the current fish in the tank. Say the tank is naturally at 6.5, all the current animals are used to it, and it is very soft water. Now you add this magic chemical and it instantly buffers to 7.2 (biological pH), and a medium hardness. You have basically shocked all the fish in the tank, plus the fish in the bag. I'm going to dig a little deeper into this product and report back.

It has never been recommended on this site (that I've seen) to every tip the bag over and allow the fish to swim out. Most on this site want a minimum of bag water to get in the tank in case it harbors parasites/disease. I actually use a hybrid method that I developed since I'm not too great with a net.

I float the bag, do the water changes, then when getting ready to add the fish, I make a fist at the bottom of the bag which causes the fish to swim upwards. I continue to inch my way up until they are in a small amount of water, twist off the water under my hand (this has the majority of fish waste and any sand/substrate that would be in the bag), and then gently open the other side and drop the fish in. All this takes under a minute, and while a cup or so of water from the bag is introduced to the tank, I'd rather do that then attempt to net the fish in the bag and possibly stress or damage them.

 

[7Enigma]

UPDATE:

After 5 minutes of research here is what I have concluded:

-John Kuhns is the inventor and thus profits from the sale of NovAqua (this alone should set alarms off folks!)

-He claims his product:

"The NovAqua is a water conditioner that removes chlorine, destroys chloramine (releasing the ammonia, of course), adds physiologically active electrolytes that are important for freshwater aquariums and ponds, aids in maintaining the alkalinity (acid-neutralizing capacity) of freshwater, and adds a tertiary (3-part) skin slime replacer.

I highlighted the parts I feel are very important. You are suddenly changing the electrolytes (salts basically, although I don't know what the heck a physiologically active electrolyte is....lol), maintaining the alkalinity is increasing the hardness of the water most likely, and the last part I have no comment on... So basically my whole point is that your a drastically changing the bag conditions with the new fish, but MORE IMPORTANTLY you are drastically changing the TANK parameters. You'll be stressing ALL of the fish to some degree, instead of slightly stressing the fish in the bag. From a scientific and a logical standpoint, it doesn't make sense.

But I'd sell it to you as well, if I was making money on it......

justin


EDIT:
Oh yeah I took this info from this interview I googled:

http://www.aquamaniacs.net/forum/cms_view_article.php?aid=20

 

[cJw]

Sounds dangerous to me.

Let's put you an a plane to Siberia. You're all comfortable (for a limited time) on the flight, but after several hours, you're feeling stuffy and tense. There's no food or entertainment on the flight, and the turbulence and noise has been awful. Dreadful. Frankly, your ready to vomit, but can't because you haven't had anything to eat. Once you finally land, the big, burly flight attendant pours a bottle of Vodka over your head, picks you up, and throws you out the door. No coat. No warning, into the cold dark of the deepst, most primitive forests in Siberia where you can see Tigers and Bears peering through the thick growth.

Naw, I'd rather be acclimatized slowly.

Excellent illustration!


I always thought the reason for not dumping the LFS bagwater into your tank was possible contamination from disease/parasites... 8O

 

[LindaC]

Let's put you an a plane to Siberia. You're all comfortable (for a limited time) on the flight, but after several hours, you're feeling stuffy and tense. There's no food or entertainment on the flight, and the turbulence and noise has been awful. Dreadful. Frankly, your ready to vomit, but can't because you haven't had anything to eat. Once you finally land, the big, burly flight attendant pours a bottle of Vodka over your head, picks you up, and throws you out the door. No coat. No warning, into the cold dark of the deepst, most primitive forests in Siberia where you can see Tigers and Bears peering through the thick growth.

I agree, too funny!

I just read that interview you posted the link from and something that he says bothers me about Amquel. He states that it doesn't have the same "rotten egg smell" like lots of other water conditioners do. I don't know about anyone else, but my bottle of Amquel smells very much like rotten eggs. Actually it's the only one of my wate conditioners that does smell like rotten eggs and I have Nova Aqua, Nova Aqua+, Prime and Amquel. Anyone else on that one or is it just me?

7Enigma - I like your idea of pushing up the water in the bag until there is very little and then opening the other end to let the fish out. That sounds less stressful than trying to stick a net in the bag, I have always hated doing that but have always been afraid to let any of the bag water to get into my tank. I'll have to give your way a try! I have a couple of female Rams being shipped overnight to me this week and I have been worrying about adding them to my tank because they were raised in hard water and my water is soft. Hopefully I won't stress them out too much in doing so.

 

[7Enigma]

I have Prime and do from time to time get the rotten egg smell. This is from the sulfur compounds that bind up the chlorine. It's completely normal, and lets you know the stuff is still good.

That, or you have a gas leak in the house.... 8O

 

[Wizzard~Of~Ozz]

Yes, once your bottle of prime ages to a ripe old age (say 6 montsh from the time it was opened) it will develop that auroma.

I've seen people introduce the fish both ways, never had a problem with it, infact my Sisters BN Pleco was only floated for about 2 mins, had 2 shot glasses of tank water added at 1 minute intervals. then dumped in the tank and immeditately grabbed the glass and started suckin away.. didn't even try to hide.

I'm in the middle, While I found the analogy of being on a plane humourous, it neglects the major difference.

1, this method is only used where the temps are the same, also the water typically being warmer in the tank then the bag, so let's rephrase it a little.

Would you prefer to be flown to a tropical paradise, but kept on the cold cramped plane (heaters didn't work the whole flight) smelling your own feces while they slowly over the course of 1/2 hour or more raise the temperature of the plane up and let some tropical air in. then in some cases grab you by the ankles and chuck you into the sand. other cases they just push you out of the plane.

or.

You land in the cold cramped stinky plane, they open the door and you are immediately pushed out of the plane onto the sand to enjoy an environment that is far less stressful then that cold cramped plane.. or even the warming cramped plane that smells of feces.

It is a great analogy, but it doesn't work one way only, and I can see the benefits of both methods, both induce stress in the fish, but I think dumping them into the tank is far less stressful in all honesty.

most primitive forests in Siberia where you can see Tigers and Bears peering through the thick growth.

That was a good laugh, better to look out the window and see them gathering.

 

[CGGorman]

Good point. Funny, too!

 

[7Enigma]

Wizzard~Of~Ozz,

You make a very good point. Clearly, there is no clear cut answer. I think the physiological (actual tank perameters such as pH, temp, hardness of water, trace elements) stressing components must be weighed against the psychological (confined space, cannot hide, etc.) stressing components. While I still think dumping them into the tank is far more harmful, there may be something to the stress caused by the bag.

Here's a thought. Use a well cleaned small black glad bag, or other bag that will not permit light to enter, and put it around the clear bag from the LFS. Then do the normal acclimation of temp, small additions of water, and then right before addition remove the black bag and put the fish in.

I wonder how much of the stress is being caused by being "out in the open", rather than by actually being IN the bag...

 

[bosk1]

I think we are overlooking one critical factor that should go into all of our decisions: do they even have tigers in Siberia?

 

[LindaC]

I wonder how much of the stress is being caused by being "out in the open", rather than by actually being IN the bag...

I've often wondered the same thing, it cannot be enjoyable to be sitting there in a bag of who knows what feeling trapped while other fish are swimming around or watching you in the bag. The last couple of fish that I acclimated to my tank, actually became much more active while sitting there, poking and raming the sides of the bag trying to get out.

I think I actually like the idea of just taking them out of the bag as soon as possible and placing them into their new home. Hey, if it were me, I'd want to be let out ASAP.

 

[icon149]

One of the big plus points of the dose and dump method is that in the bag there is an excess of co2, and ammonia from the fish and trasnport, so the co2 makes carbonic acid which makes the ph go down, so the ammonia is not dangerous. then when you put it in the tank, the temp in the bag goes up, making ammonia more dangerous, you open the bag, letting out the extra co2 which starts the ph to go up, and then you put water from your tank into the bag, suddenly giving the water in the bag buffering capacity which shoots the ph back up to a normal level instantly... and if that level is over 7 it makes the ammonia extremely dangerous. so know you are keeping the fish is a tiny bag full of toxic ammonia and radical ph swings. I guess thats the biggest plus. but i think its only an issue if the fish have been transported for a long period.

I don't know, its really an interesting bit of chemistry happening inside that plastic sack

 

[7Enigma]

I think in a long LONG transit between LFS and your tank, there may be some merit to not letting the fish sit in their own waste (but then I would argue to bring a separate container with extra LFS water, and still acclimate using the previously mentioned method but with the LFS water first, and then switch to your tank water).

 

[CGGorman]

I think we are overlooking one critical factor that should go into all of our decisions: do they even have tigers in Siberia?

Sure do.
http://www.siberian-tigers.com/