the chemistry doesn't make sense......

[mgkaelen]

i made a post a while ago about crushed coral being used as a natural pH up, and tried to read all the posts i could about it. what i read was that the crushed coral acts as a buffer to the acid;
a buffer doesn't change pH though, it just makes pH more STABLE --- much more difficult to CHANGE the pH once you have a buffer. so if my pH is LOW, wouldn't i want to get it up somehow, THEN use the coral to KEEP it that way? a guy at the [acronym:60af9378e7="Local Fish Store"]LFS[/acronym:60af9378e7] today (i don't trust any of those guys) said that i would need the coral AND a buffer-- did he mean instead of buffer that i'd need something like pH UP? i know i don't need a chemical to do this, i 'm just confused of the actual proces sthat takes place.

ALSO,
i read that you're supposed to add a TINY bit of coral (1/2 tsp per every 10 litres? did i mis-read)? when i went to the [acronym:60af9378e7="Local Fish Store"]LFS[/acronym:60af9378e7] today, they only sold 10lb bags of the crushed coral and i know i only need about a handful. when i told the guys that worked there that, they said "well what about adding a coral"; which reminded me! i have this coral that my boyfriend's mom dug out of the ocean about 9 months ago and gave to us and it's been sitting on my bookshelf ever since since i have no idea what to do with it. i've cleaned it out -- could i use THIS as my carbonate source? if so, will the entire coral be too much and change the pH dramatically? the coral is about 5 inches x 4 inches to give a rough estimate.

anyhow, any help to bring to light HOW this buffer works and the ORDER in which to add it all to my tank would be much appreciated. thanks guysssssssssssssssssss.

oh by the way, other tank params are great. [acronym:60af9378e7="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:60af9378e7] isn't tested at my [acronym:60af9378e7="Local Fish Store"]LFS[/acronym:60af9378e7] but i checked my city's [acronym:60af9378e7="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:60af9378e7] and i believe it's 104 which someone told me was a good [acronym:60af9378e7="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:60af9378e7] and the crushed coral would work well with that number. thanks![/u]

[mgkaelen]

oh yeah, pH in my tanks are 6.5 and 5.0; have been that way for quite sometime so i know the fish are fine, but i'd like to add more fish sometime and don't want to kill them due to shock. the 5.0 pH is in my 10g planted tank and i turned off the [acronym:797b75a68e="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:797b75a68e] a while ago since i know that works as a pH down.

[poikilotherm]

A buffer doesn't just make the pH more stable. It makes it stable at a particular pH depending on the buffering system. Carbonate buffers buffer best at pH's between 8 and 10, but harden water. Phosphate buffers work in the 6.5-8 pH range, but introduce algae growth problems. That [acronym:7667aadf1d="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:7667aadf1d] translates to about 6 dKH, moderately soft. Coral should raise pH and buffer simultaneously, don't worry about adjusting the pH first.

The amount that the coral affects the water will depend primarily on surface area of the coral, so I imagine that your chunk of coral will dissolve pretty slowly, and be OK to use. Boil it for a while first, just to be safe. Just monitor your pH, [acronym:7667aadf1d="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:7667aadf1d] and [acronym:7667aadf1d="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:7667aadf1d].

Buffers are pretty complex unless you have a background in chemistry, but there are many references on water chemistry such as:
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-chem.html

[TankGirl]

Let me just relay my personal experience with crushed coral, and that might help you. I started an African cichlid tank years ago with water out of the tap measuring about 7.4 pH and [acronym:8a96d3f15f="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:8a96d3f15f] of about 5 degrees, [acronym:8a96d3f15f="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:8a96d3f15f] of about 10 degrees.

I put buffering sand in the tank and petrified coral rock, and did not see a very noticeable increase in pH, alkalinity or hardness. I then got a giant bag of crushed coral (probably the same bag I am using now) and put about a cup of it in my filter. In about 3 days I had pH up to 8.2, [acronym:8a96d3f15f="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:8a96d3f15f] up to 7 degrees and [acronym:8a96d3f15f="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:8a96d3f15f] up to 15 degrees.

I think it would be a wonderful experiment (one that can really do no harm) to add [acronym:8a96d3f15f="Crushed Coral (if substrate) or Counter Current (if referring to a Protien skimmer) or cubic centimeter (if referring to a measure of volume)."]CC[/acronym:8a96d3f15f] to your filter and see what it might do to your pH and your [acronym:8a96d3f15f="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:8a96d3f15f].

[mgkaelen]

i guess i should get the [acronym:b26446bd07="Crushed Coral (if substrate) or Counter Current (if referring to a Protien skimmer) or cubic centimeter (if referring to a measure of volume)."]cc[/acronym:b26446bd07] then; i will try the coral that i have and see how it works in a week or so; i have done 3 water changes in 2 weeks with no fluctuation in pH so i'm not in any rush i suppose becuase i know the fish are used to it because at least the pH is stable.

poikilo: i am familiar with chemistry which is why i was confused what was going on. however, you said that the Carbonate buffers work best at a pH of 8-10. is this your aimed pH? because i'll be starting at a 5 & 6.5 pH and trying to get around 8...

[poikilotherm]

Crushed coral will increase your pH depending on how much you use. If you use lots and lots, it'll bring it to a rock-solid stable really hard 9ish, but if you use less it'll bring it to a pretty stable, moderate 8ish, which sounds like what you're looking for. Carbonic acid is a weak acid so it buffers to a high pH. No other buffers are necessary. Have fun!

[mattrox]

It is not so much the weight, but the surface area. A big lump of coral will not react as quickly as a handfull of crushed coral. Especially if it is in the filter with water rushing all around it.

[madasafish]

Let's see if I can help with the Chemistry at all, Kaelen. Stephen, correct me if I'm wrong. Not 100% sure that it's right, but I am 100% sure that I'm giving a simplified version of it, as there are many more steps to all of these reactions than I'm mentioning.

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A basic reaction... the balance of [acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:4e6438eafe] and pH in water.

H2O + [acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:4e6438eafe] +... <=> H+ + [acronym:4e6438eafe="Hydrogen carbonate"]HCO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe]- (bicarbonate) + [acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbonate"]CO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe]^2- (carbonate) + H20 +....
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[acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:4e6438eafe] regulates pH in water, as [acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:4e6438eafe] and water will react, creating H+ ions (the substance of pH--pH is lower when there are more H+ ions in a solution) and bicarbonate and carbonate. ([acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:4e6438eafe] exists in some quantity in all water, and is always moving in or out of the water due to gas exchange, so the above reaction never goes to only one side.)

H20 is in abundance in this reaction, so rate of reaction this way (->) is determined by the limiting reagant, [acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:4e6438eafe]. Rate of reaction the other way(<-) is limited by the amount of bicarbonate and carbonate in the water. In an environment with more bicarbonate and carbonate, the reaction will proceed faster in the backwards direction, raising the pH.

As I understand it, then, [acronym:4e6438eafe="Calcium carbonate"]CaCO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe] (Calcium Carbonate) acts as a "buffer" in accordance with reaction rates. It is perceived as a buffer because it will react very quickly in acidic environments, and quite slowly (imperceptibly) in higher-pH environments. In other words, it exists in water in a fairly unreactive state unless the pH of the water is fairly low (when the H+ ion concentration is quite high). The ions ([acronym:4e6438eafe="Calcium"]Ca[/acronym:4e6438eafe]^2+ and [acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbonate"]CO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe]^2-) will disassociate in water, and the carbonate ion will be able to react with the H+ ion, reducing the number of H+ ions, and keeping the pH up. When there are few H+ ions to react with (high pH), the reaction rate slows, and the pH does not continue to shoot up.

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Something along the lines of...

[acronym:4e6438eafe="Calcium carbonate"]CaCO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe] ---disasocciates in water---> [acronym:4e6438eafe="Calcium"]Ca[/acronym:4e6438eafe]^2+ and [acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbonate"]CO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe]^2-

[acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbonate"]CO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe]^2- + 2H+ ... --> [acronym:4e6438eafe="Hydrogen carbonate"]HCO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe]- + H+ +...

Then [acronym:4e6438eafe="Hydrogen carbonate"]HCO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe]- + H+ <=> H20 + [acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:4e6438eafe] +... (all equations unbalanced)
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So, finally, then, in the context of the aquarium...

[acronym:4e6438eafe="Calcium carbonate"]CaCO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe] you add to the water in the form of coral will buffer pH to a certain level because it uses up H+ ions at a particular rate. When H+ ions are more scarce, the pH won't change much, and the [acronym:4e6438eafe="Calcium carbonate"]CaCO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe] will just hang out, and raise to a certain level, as the surface area of the coral reacts with the water. At a certain level, the [acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:4e6438eafe] (Carbonate hardness) of the water will become stable. This is the level at which the reaction of the coral and water ([acronym:4e6438eafe="Calcium carbonate"]CaCO3[/acronym:4e6438eafe] + H+ +H2O, the backwards direction) and the reaction of the [acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:4e6438eafe] and water ([acronym:4e6438eafe="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:4e6438eafe] + H2O, the forwards direction) are more or less cancelling each other out. In this way, the first equation comes to a relative equilibrium.

Does that make any sense? It's amateur Chemistry... I'm still learning, but this seems to make sense to me.

[aquazen]

All a buffer does is keep the pH from shifting too much. Different buffers work at different levels. Some may raise the pH up to 8 and keep buffering at 8 while others can raise it up to 10 and buffer at that level. Most of the time, it's not so much the amount but the compound that you use. But like all buffers, they are consumable. If you have TOO much acid in the water (enough to totally consume the amount of buffer you have present in solution), there will be a drop in pH. So, that's how it works in a nutshell. Don't get too caught up in crunching the numbers. The principle is the key. Just see that your fish are happy in the pH they're at. Treat the patient, not the numbers.

[MarkLehr]

Also, true crushed coral will not begin to buffer until your pH drops below about 7.6 ; you may also have an aragonite based coral gravel which will buffer at much higher levels.
My number 1 rule of fishkeeping is don't mess with pH. You would be much better off to simply find fish which are compatable at the natural pH of your water supply. In all my years I have kept everything you can imagine and i have never found a reason to adjust pH. Your fish will be much happier at a consistant pH which is lower than they prefer, than they will be at levels which are constantly fluctuating.