The real importance of PH, nitrates, etc?

[bosk1]

Lots of great advice on the major issues, but I'll pick this little one to throw in my two cents on:

Nothing at all? Ugh... I hate doing that, but if that will help. I'd rather they go hungry than be poisoned.

Fish can go longer without eating than mammals can. They are cold blooded animals, and their appetites do not work the same as yours and mine. They will be fine going without for a couple of days.

 

[waynephinney]

I hadn't thought of that. Shows how much I know about animals. I'm a generally bright guy, but fish especially aren't something I ever had any interest in before. This was kind of a spur of the moment decision. Doh! Note to self... research BEFORE trying something new.

Also, I don't know if it's of any importance today, but I found this out. My girl's brother had an aquarium in the house we're in. 15ish gallon or so. Anyhow, all of his fish died. I don't know the circumstances and whether or not he just did the same thing I did, but that's also reason to think it could possibly be something in the water from the well. Or he could have just had no idea what he was doing either.

Gotta test the tap.

Now, if the tap water really isn't ideal for even starting a tank, is there a storebought water I should get? I know that spring water tends to have all sorts of minerals in it, so I don't know how good or bad that would be. Ideas?

 

[7Enigma]

I've never heard of plants taking up ammonia or nitrites. They will consume nitrates, but are really only effective if driven with high lighting so IMO plants are not the answer here.

About the best thing you could do wayne, is try and get some media from an established filter to run on your tank. My lfs runs box filters in some of their tanks. I would look to borrow or buy one from an existing tank if your lfs is using any.

Here's a bizzare thought..... The people at your lfs don't even know what the nitrogen cycle is. If it were me, I would gently chastize them for selling you so many fish at one time. You may even get some store credit when you explain to them what you've learned here.

Brian,

Plants PREFER ammonia over other forms of nitrogen. They actually prefer nitrAte the least, but will use it when other nitrogen sources are not readily available. I never said plants would USE nitrIte, I said it would not be present in the tank (or very little) due to the plants using the nitrIte. I've seen this now more than once on the forum, some people seem confused regarding the nitrogen cycle in plants. Unlike bacteria which either release nitrIte or nitrAte which are contaminants, in plants they use ammonia and do not put any nitrogen waste product back in the water.

Again I would recommend to stop feeding for 2-3 days, getting some plants, but cutting your hours with the tank light back to no more than 8 hours. The plants I suggested as well as the Anacharis (thanks Fishy!) are all low light requiring plants that will get enough from 8hours per day easily. This is to prevent an outbreak of diatoms (brown algae), or green algae. While these might help to use up the available ammonia in the water, they are somewhat annoying to get rid of depending on the infestation. The lower hours of light might also lessen the stress on the fish during this traumatic time.

justin

 

[waynephinney]

If algae can help with ammonia, why would I want to get rid of it if I had it? I take it that the algae in large enough quatities could hurt the fish? Is it free floating, or does it grow on the glass, rocks, etc? If it's a surface algae, I would think enough snails could balance that out.

Which reminds me... if I end up with more snails, do I even calculate them into the bio load as far as producing stuff goes? I mean... I really don't know what kind of waste snails have, if any. How efficient are they anyhow?

This is great. I am learning so much.

 

[7Enigma]

waynephinney,

I am not completely sure about the algae. Yes they will use up the ammonia, BUT they will cause a problem with how your tank looks. Some of these algae blooms go away very easily (even on their own), but other times (especially with hair algae), they can be a serious pain to eradicate.

No the snails do not calculate into the bio load. While they will produce waste in the tank, unless you raise an army of them, they will do more good than harm.

Most people get the snails not for their digestive properties (most get Otocinclus catfish for brown algae, and cory catfish (or other large cleaner fish such as pleco's if you have a big tank) for general tank cleanup (green algae, excess food, etc), but rather for their ability to continuously stir up the substrate (gravel, sand, etc). While gravel probably does not benefit in this way from MTS, sand and other very fine substrate will develop poisonous gas pockets that can build and then harm/kill your fish. With the MTS, they will constantly release these pockets ensuring that gas buildup is kept to a minimum. They will also (from turning the substrate), allow for a slightly higher total bioload (read: fish number), due to their constant aeration of the substrate allowing for more bacteria to be housed in the tank.

 

[waynephinney]

This brings me to another question which I just realized. I have three small snails that I got with some fish, but if they are going to eat plants I put in there, they won't be very useful at all. Should I just get them out of there, wait til the tank is stabilized, and then special order a type of snail that has a good history of NOT eating the plants?

I just don't want them eating what I need to help stabilize things in the tank.

 

[7Enigma]

Well, frankly I'm not a snail expert, but I don't know of any snails that eat plants, or at least to the degree that they would kill or seriously reduce their nitrogen uptake. I'd just leave them in. Do you know what kind they are?

It's also possible you might have a snail eater in your tank right now and you don't know it (I'm not familiar with several of your fish types). So that might negate your question.

 

[waynephinney]

They're barely the size of a pea, so I can't really even trying to determine what kind of snails they are.

As for snail eaters, I'm not sure if I have any. The snails are still ok, and I didn't get any loaches because I read about them eating snails.

I suppose unless anyone tells me otherwise, I'll leave them in there.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

Do you have any pics of the snails? Are they longer and cone shaped? Plants will help with Algae issues. They will outcompete the algae for phosphates. I have never heard of them prefering Ammonia over Nitrates, but it could be possible. Algae will not harm the fish. It just isn't asthetically pleasing to the owner.

 

[7Enigma]

Fishy, you have never heard of plants preferring ammonia over nitrAtes? I swear I've read it a number of times on the web, and more than once on this site even! As for the confusion, it might be that you've heard of people dosing nitrAte into their tanks. This is normally done in very extreme circumstances where you have a TON of plants with very few fish/ammonia producers. In this situation not enough "food" is being produced for the plants and so you need to feed them. The problem is you don't want to dose with ammonia, since it will hurt/kill the fish, so you dose with nitrAte which is much less toxic and the plants will still use it.

Some plant expert PLEASE chime in on this so I don't begin to think I'm crazy. 8O

 

[Fishyfanatic]

7Enigma- Like I said in my post, no, I have never heard of plants preferring Ammonia over Nitrates, but it doesn't mean it isn't true, just never heard it. And yes, I have a planted tank and dose Nitrogen due to a low bio-load.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I don't think I've heard of that either. Nitrogen is nitrogen, whether it's in ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. But if someone could shine a light on this subject, we'd all benefit from it.

 

[Skyrmir]

While I'm no expert by a long shot, I do know from experience that plants will consume ammonia and nitrate, not sure on nitrtite, but it's very likely. If you have enough plants and light with a low bio-load, some tanks won't ever 'cycle'. The plants eat up all the ammonia before the bacteria can really get hold, and by the time the bacteria does form, the bio-load is balanced already.

As for dosing nitrates, that's because the plants consume the nitrates to grow, faster than the bacteria can produce it. Again mainly a case of plenty of light and lots of the right plants. Anacharis is one that doesn't need a lot of light to consume a ton of nitrate. Pretty much any of the 'floating' type plants will eat up nitrate at a high rate because they absorb directly through the leaves instead of needing roots. Anacharis would be the easiest to grow (it's a weed), Hornwort can be a bit more demanding, I think I'm going to loose the battle with this parrot's feather.

While the plants will consume the nitrates, water changes are still needed on a regular basis to keep heavy metals and other un-testable bio-chemicals from building up. Actaully they can be tested for, but it's not easy and WAY to expensive to bother with for an aquarium.

 

[7Enigma]

Skyrmir,

From what I've read, nitrIte is only used by plants as a last resort (ie after both ammonia and nitrAte have been exhausted), which is very rare. The wonderful thing about this however, is that you will then be able to house a good amount of nitrIte to nitrAte bacteria in the tank if some of your ammonia to nitrIte bacteria can generate the nitrIte. So in the case where your plants die you will have somewhat of a backup nitrogen strategy.

And I thought the purpose of water changes for the plants was to PROVIDE the trace heavy metals and nutrients that they will use up naturally, not get rid of them?

 

[7Enigma]

I don't think I've heard of that either. Nitrogen is nitrogen, whether it's in ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. But if someone could shine a light on this subject, we'd all benefit from it.

While nitrogen is nitrogen, its the ease of use, that is the least amount of energy required to get the nitrogen will be the one chosen. It's like saying you can go to the 50th story floor of a high rise by 3 ways: riding the private elevator that has no intermediate stops (ammonia), riding the community elevator that stops every couple floors (nitrAte), or walking up the stairwell (nitrIte). You could make it any of the 3 ways, but there is a preference due to the amount of effort and time required.

 

[7Enigma]

7Enigma- Like I said in my post, no, I have never heard of plants preferring Ammonia over Nitrates, but it doesn't mean it isn't true, just never heard it. And yes, I have a planted tank and dose Nitrogen due to a low bio-load.

One more thing I just thought of. Before I was reading any appreciable nitrItes but a good amount of nitrAtes are present in my tap water (about 10-20ppm), I poured some of my fish water (very high ammonia content) into my live catnip plant that was looking pretty bad (leaves were yellowing and withering). I have always watered with my tap water so the catnip was always getting a supply of nitrAte on a regular basis. There were a couple of new baby shoots that were sprouting up that had been there for a week or 2 (maybe 1/3 to 1/2" tall). The DAY AFTER I put the fishwater in while the large withering shoots were still looking bad the young sprouts had grown to 2-2.5" in less than 24 hours. I was amazed at the speed these things were growing and have a feeling that since I was just watering the plant and not providing ammonia, they were nitrogen starved (or using a lot of energy to get the nitrAte into a usable nitrogen source). So yes they apparently like ammonia!

 

[BrianNY]

Well I didn't say plants didn't uptake ammonia Justin, just that I'd never heard of it. I'm not too old to learn and being that they are all N compounds, I can see the possibility.

As far as cycling a tank though, we all know that ammonia and nitrites spike. They do become toxic to fish, and thinking that any appreciable difference would result from plants is impracticle. Even you could plant densely enough, without the other plant requirements (enough lighting and CO2), there is nothing to drive the engine of nutrient uptake.

 

[7Enigma]

I think its quite practical that planting several (4-5) low light, fast growing plants like java moss and Anacharis would most definately reduce the amount of ammonia and nitrAte (and nitrIte since the bacteria is not getting as much ammonia) to an appreciable and measurable amount. The fact that OP already has a lot of fish in the tank only increases the need for drastic ammonia reduction (where every bit counts), and plants should do a very good job at preventing more fish loss.

 

[BrianNY]

Well my friend Justin, here we will have to agree to disagree. I'm not from MO, but you'd have to back that up with statistics before I bought into it.

Are you saying that a well stocked, heavily planted new tank would never have an ammonia spike? Or are you saying the spike might be from 5ppm down to 3ppm?

 

[rich311k]

I would think a high light tank with a lot of fast growers may never spike ammonia if you stocked slowly. I do not think plants will help in a situation like this with a very overstocked tank that already has an ammonia spike.