The real importance of PH, nitrates, etc?

[7Enigma]

Well my friend Justin, here we will have to agree to disagree. I'm not from MO, but you'd have to back that up with statistics before I bought into it.

Are you saying that a well stocked, heavily planted new tank would never have an ammonia spike? Or are you saying the spike might be from 5ppm down to 3ppm?

Depending on the amount of plants, lighting, and other factors (tank temp, pH, etc) I definately think its possible to never see an ammonia spike. But like Rich said, I don't think you could keep this tank completely depleted of ammonia/nitrIte/nitrAte since your already fighting an uphill battle.

I do think though that (in this specific situation) you could definately cut the ammonia due to the plants, and coupling that with the frequent PWC's which I aggreed with in my first post, you have a higher chance of not killing the fish.

It's impossible for either of us to know exactly what will happen in this case, but I subscribe to the every bit counts mentality. You could look at his tank and say, "Well your screwed, you might as well just let the fish die because its already a foregone conclusion". Or you could say, "It looks really bad, but IF you do PWC's frequently, use twice the amount of Prime or other chlorine remover, introduce some plants, stop feeding for a couple days, keep good aeration in the tank, and keep a high tank temp (>80F), you just might prevent some deaths".

 

[7Enigma]

I would think a high light tank with a lot of fast growers may never spike ammonia if you stocked slowly. I do not think plants will help in a situation like this with a very overstocked tank that already has an ammonia spike.

Rich,

I'm having a tough time with this post. Maybe were conflicted on the definition of "help", but in the first sentence you say that plants may completely prevent an ammonia spike, and in the next one you say that in this situation it won't help? It's got to be one or the other. Either they always are beneficial, or never beneficial. What I think you mean is that in this situation there is so much ammonia being produced in the tank that the plants will not decrease the ammonia much. I would agree with you if we are talking about a plant that must be anchored in the soil and that gains much of its nutrients through the roots, and that is considered a slow grower. But with the plants I've mentioned they absorb primarily through the leaves. This gives them incredible surface area to absorb ammonia, and they are only limited by the amount of light, and the amount of CO2 they can get (trace nutrients such as phosphates and other metals are irrelevant in this situation due to the constant need for PWC's).

If you have a good amount of light, and your "waterfall" from the power filter is agitating the water well, you shouldn't run into a problem with stagnant plant growth.

I think the general concensus seems to be an underestimation of how effective plants are at absorbing ammonia. Maybe I've overexaggerated their rate of ammonia uptake, but I still feel its a great benefit to this specific tank and aquariums in general.

I'm almost ready to go buy a small 10gallon setup to test the uptake rate of ammmonia with solely plants (and lowlight at that). But I think my wife would kill me if I did that right now...

 

[7Enigma]

One last thing I've forgotten in my posts. You may want to add a small amount of sea salt (NOT the salt with iodine or other additives) to your tank water. Maybe 1 teaspoon to your tank (1/3 recommended dosing to be safe for all of your fish, as I don't know if any are sensitive). Due to the expected nitrIte spike (I forget if you've already had it or not), it has been hypothesized that it prevents hemoglobin death (and thus the death of your fish).

 

[waynephinney]

What good does that do exactly?

 

[7Enigma]

Basically nitrIte when it enters the bloodstream converts hemoglobin into methemoglobin. This prevents the hemoglobin from binding oxygen, and when enough hemoglobin has been converted, the fish will suffocate. It's very similar in end result to carbon monoxide poisoning in humans...

 

[Fishyfanatic]

I've always read on this site and been told to use Freshwater Salt to help combat Nitrite poisoning, not marine salt. Plants to not particularly appreciate salt in their environment.

 

[7Enigma]

I've never heard of a difference in salt (its just sodium chloride). The "sea salt" I'm referring to is available everywhere, including the supermarket. And while plants do not particularly like salt, at the low concentration I suggested, you should not see negative effects.

 

[Fishyfanatic]

There is salt such as marine salt and then there is Freshwater salt. Marine salt is used for saltwater and brackish tanks. The Freshwater salt can be used to treat sicknesses. Freshwater salt can also be Kosher salt and the like, non-ionidized.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

I've been trying to look this up, but a couple weeks ago I remember reading that plants take in nitrates, and that the bacteria growing around the root system and on the plants is what converts the nitrite and ammonia to nitrate, which is taken in by the plant. If I find it, I'll post it.

 

[Skyrmir]

Salt is the common name for NaCl (Sodium Chloride), it also applies to a bazillion other compounds.

Sea Salt, Freshwater Salt, Kosher Salt, Iodized salt are all just ways to tell you what is or is not mixed with the salt. For freshwater tanks you can use regular old NON-iodized table salt from the grocery store. (Iodine is highly poisonous to fish) The other salts are all going to cost more and may or may not have additives you don't need or don't want.

I'd have to agree that adding plants at this point, while it would help a small amount, isn't going to be a fix. To really shut down the ammonia spike you'd need a heavily planted tank with high light and co2. (Think full blanket thick planting) In reality I think it would take more plants than would fit in the tank to make a serious dent if the spike has already happened. Might be a fun experiment to try with dosing ammonia, but I don't think it'd be humane to do it with live fish. It's just that if there's already a high ammonia reading, the plants would not only have to uptake all the ammonia already there, but also all the ammonia that is still being produced. That's a pretty tall order.

Even fresh Bio-Spera won't actually shut down a spike. It just manages to deal with the ammonia being produced. A double dose might help if the tank is well aerated, and fortunately you can double dose it safely.

 

[Lonewolfblue]

One last thing I've forgotten in my posts. You may want to add a small amount of sea salt (NOT the salt with iodine or other additives) to your tank water. Maybe 1 teaspoon to your tank (1/3 recommended dosing to be safe for all of your fish, as I don't know if any are sensitive). Due to the expected nitrIte spike (I forget if you've already had it or not), it has been hypothesized that it prevents hemoglobin death (and thus the death of your fish).

Actually, I don't think you want to use marine salt, as it has other ingredients used mainly in brackish and marine tanks. What you use is Aquarium salt, which is just salt, and no other additives that marine water fish need.

 

[greenmaji]

Justin.. I think you have some good theory going but Ive seen on this board alone people try to use the same logic (yes, I was of the same mind set as you and I scrutinized there method and they seemed to do everything right) to cycle a tank and in practice it just didnt work.

Wayne needs to test NH3 and NO2 and change alot of water to keep them low.. and possibley invest in some biospiera.. adding plants may give a little buffer for "insurance".

good luck..