this might get me in trouble, but...

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FishyPeanut said:
to me, it is equivalent to bringing a wild elephant home and expecting it to live in a house comfortably. does that make sense? or a tiger, or a kinkajoo (see paris hilton).

That is probably the dumbest comparison i have ever heard of, just because someone wants to keep a native fish doesnt mean they are keeping it in a small, inadiquate tank, think about it, people are not keeping salmon in a 10 gallon tank, a person could keep a pike in a 250+ gallon tank just fine, whats wrong with that,
 
FishyPeanut said:
I am just frustrated with someone bringing home a pike caught in lake michigan and expecting it to be happy in a 20 gal tank.

you all have commented the same.


so don't try to give me the whole "i am wrong, blah blah blah, trick, you all know what i am saying. You put a hook in it's mouth and think "aww, he is cute, i'll just run to walmart and grab a tank for him."


No. stop it.

ok, so give me a hard time. i am expecting it. and play devil's advocate. I am expecting that too.

I am talking about someone bringing home a baby salmon and not realizing this fish will grow to 40+ lbs.

your trying to be a hero here, but your not at all, there would be nothing wrong with keeping a native fish in proper conditions, all fish are native somewhere
 
Fishy, you're upset you because care about your fish, probably more than anyone else I know. I know you've worked so hard to get where you are now, and it probably just kills you seeing someone go into something they're not prepared for, especially if fish suffer for it.

But perhaps coming here is the first step to setting up an acceptable native tank. People here can give their insight and educate. Then, hopefully, the ones wanting natives can weigh that information and make a responsible decision because of us. Luckily, everyone here seems pretty committed to providing the best care and promoting responsible fishkeeping, so lets hope its contagious.
 
Good topic and after all sometimes one has to scream before anyone will see the avalanche coming down because they can't hear you yell. :) This is about not knowing the right thing to do to when some go out and try to keep fish they know nothing about except what they taste like.
 
FishyPeanut said:
taking native fish out of lakes and streams and putting them in aquariums

I think the opposite is more damaging - releasing pet store fish into lakes and streams. But that's another topic altogether. :wink:

Aside from killies and minnows, I can't think of any native fish where I live that would do too well in an aquarium.

Some states don't allow game fish to be kept as pets either.
 
fish

FishyPeanut, thank you. :D Great topic and wonderful discussion. As fish_4_all said, a bit of screaming is good sometimes. And if you can't vent here among friends, where can you.

I understand your anger and frustration. I worry, examine and have stressed over every pet acquisition I have ever made. Took me months to decide on a dog. Or whether I would have the time to properly care for one. I feel very strongly that if you cannot properly care for something, be it a 10 cent goldfish or a $1000 dog, or a child, then Do Not Do It! We can bring in the Bible and being a good steward of the land or legal obligations or even simple common sense, but to me it all comes down to responsibility.

On the other hand I also understand the temptation. When fishing many times I have looked at a cute little guy, be it bass, bluegill or northern pike and wanted to take it home. But I knew what I would be in for and that I could not take care of it properly. In many ways it is the same feeling in the LFS when a fish catches your eye. I guess the difference is in the 'details'. lol

Bottom line, not everyone is responsible. Or even cares. But FishyPeanut, thank you for caring, for being a good steward, and for raising a little hell. :D Gets us all thinking, talking, and as has been said, might even lead another to reconsider.
 
I get the point, but it's only applicable to certain species/sizes of fish. My pet peeve is seeing arowana in 2' tanks, for example. Or garfish with community tankmates like platies or guppies. I mean, it's asking for trouble and it's not hard to research the fish you are keeping to realise that sort of stuff is totally the wrong thing to do.

But, on the other hand, take loaches for example. They are extremely hard if not impossible in many cases to breed in captivity. Provided licensing is strictly enforced and seasonal catching is used then I don't see the problem in bringing them in from the wild under quarantine conditions. It's the same for plecos and other aquarium-appropriate species too.
 
Unfortunate that natives were singled out here. How about any fish shouldn't be kept in imporper conditions. If one has the money and time I think most fish can be kept in a tank. Native fish are an often overlooked, viable option for keeping in an aquarium. As long as proper conditions are followed most can easily be kept by most. I don't distinguish between a largemouth or oscar kept in poor conditions. As long as the native fish is collected lawfully or purchased from a source it is no different than driving to the LFS and picking up a fish. I would agree (if this point had been made) that improper collection and removal of native fish from a system should not be done. Natives can make some great tanks if done correctly, why limit what one can do.

QTOFFER: pirate perch, stickle backs, darters, several of the sunfish, sculpins, mud minnows are a few. "Minnows" some show some amazing color when kept at correct breeding temperatures (daces for example). Of course some of these would ideally use chillers and would do better in species only tanks or if care is taken to select tank mates are selected.
 
i'm confused. you're obviously frustrated. you seem to be decrying people's lack of education when it comes to their choice of livestock. in the same breath you are also condemning the entire fishkeeping hobby. 95% of the fish in my 125g are "native" fish. native to south america, india, africa, and north america. just because i bought them from a fish store doesn't mean they are any different from a fish that i could have caught myself (if i had the luxury of going to malaysia or some such exotic locale). so it seems like you are saying that NO native fish should be removed from their native habitat. which means that we should all begin to dismantle our tanks. however, that seems to be a little extreme. i am a very capable aquarist, and my "native" fish are thriving--far better than they were in the lfs. it's because i have taken the time to educate myself on how to care for them, and which fish are appropriate for my environment.

i think rather than vent the frustration you feel in such extreme language, you should try to be a mentor to those who have less knowledge than you. after all, that's what aquarium advice is all about, right?

i've learned almost everything i know about fishkeeping from this site. i feel sad when the posts get so negative. we should be helping each other to learn, not castigating and condemning when people make mistakes.
 
crazycats got a point.
If someone didn't take that first native fish in the beginning, none of us wouldn't be able to appreciate today. Kind of contradictory isn't it..
 
My personal view is you shouldn't keep a native caught fish in an aquarium unless you've done several things:
1: Researched the fish and know all the things you need to keep it healthy and happy.
2: Provide the correct equipment to handle the fish, ie tank size, heater, chiller, etc, etc.
3: You maintain the tank in a healthy state.
4: And most importantly, MAKE SURE IT IS LEGAL TO HAVE THE PARTICULAR FISH IN AN AQUARIUM. Many states have laws against this.
 
Thats a good view, but shouldn't 1,2 & 3 Apply to keeping ANY fish?
In some cases, 4 would apply ie. Australia it is illegal to keep and import fish that are on the noxious list.

The impression i'm starting to get from this thread is that it is ok to keep F1's of species but it is not ethical to keep wild caughts..
 
My view of Native Caught is not fish you normally see in fish stores, such as trout, salmon, pike, bass, etc. And yes, 1-3 should be adhered to with any fish you get, whether it's wild-caught or not. But I do believe this thread was intended to be talking about fish such as trout, bass, salmon, etc, that you don't see in a fish store and are caught by you in your local rivers and lakes. What is sickening to me is when someone posts a thread asking for help because they can't get their water to clear up and they have 3 bass in a 20G tank (just an example, haven't seen any threads with 3 bass in a 20G), and don't have other equipment as well to keep the temps in the range for those particular fish. The 2 Biggies for me is 1: Legality, and 2: Research. And if you don't have the financial backing to maintain the proper tank for that particular fish, then you shouldn't have that fish, period, no matter where the fish came from or whatever type it is. It all falls under one thing, COMMON SENSE.....
 
FWIW (not much really) but we have trout, bass, and pike in a local aquarium store, they are sterilised females for personal dams etc. but I see what your saying and I agree cpmpletely:)
 
I'm a bit disappointed with this OP as well. This was an off topic rant that used a blanket statement (bad idea) when in reality the OP seems to be angry with large fish in small tanks.

This is no different then the adult Oscar in the 20gallon tank, or the thousands upon thousands of common Pleco's that are bought every day for 10-20 gallon tanks. The fact that one is personally caught, or caught in a foreign country, shipped in crowded contaminated conditions, plopped into a LFS that may or may not feed or properly take care of the fish, and then you come in all happy and buy your fish intending to care for it wonderfully...to me....is well somewhat ignorant.

I'm the first one to (sometimes harshly) educate new members if they have been given the proper information and still due to laziness or disregard for the welfare of the animal go against that advice (waynephinny comes to mind :) ). But this post was out of line IMO.

There are many instances where an isolated tank with normal tank maintainance will be better for the health and welfare of local wildlife.

If you have a complaint against specific members that are trying to keep local fauna bring that to the post in question, and be sure to bring reason and insight to the argument as well.
 
As a sort of tangent to this topic, recently my wife and I went to a "Tall-Ships" festival in Green Bay. The Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources had a booth, and they also had a tank! This tank was perfect example of the keeping of "native" fish in an aquarium.

Now, I don't want you to think that this was a 30g w/ 4 fish in it; this was more like a 200-400 gallon with a chiller (it was ~90-95 degrees out that day) with 10-15 fish in it (bass, perch, pike, etc - all native to the great lakes). Their tank was dark (as it should be), and obviously kept cool to the temperatures that those fish need. All the fish looked healthy and happy!

I was very proud of their reproduction of a natural habitat. So, it is possible, just not easy to reproduce a natural habitat accurately. LWB, I completely agree with your 4 items.
 
Yes, and the 4 items can be used for any and all fish. Doesn't matter if it's from the LFS or the lake near town. If you are not prepared to keep those fish in a healthy state, then you shouldn't have them at all. I've researched all the fish that I keep, and am prepared for upgrades as necessary. It's like when I got my 26G, and 2 fire eels. People ragged on me for doing so without even asking what my future plans were. Well, when they got to about 5 inches, I went and bought a 55G for them. Now they are about 13 inches each, and still growing. And I'm hoping to save up enough for the ultimate 265G that I really want by the first of the year, specifically for the eels. I've done my research, and have some awsome tanks, and love what I'm going through with my Bolivians and GBR's. It's a great hobby. But if someone takes the hobby and expects minimal changes to fix their major problems, well, they shouldn't have started in the first place. That's just how I feel about it. And if you are pulling a fish out of the lake near your house, all I can say is if you've researched the fish, checked and found it is legal to have it, and have the proper setup, then you will have an awsome tank. But if it's illegal, and you don't have the proper filters, chiller, etc, then expect problems. Not only in the health of the tank, but legally. And the other thing, if you haven't adhered to the 4 items above, I guarantee you won't be happy with the problems that will arise. That's the fun of the fish hobby, doing research, learning all you can, keeping the fish and the tank in a healthy and awsome looking environment. What more can a person do and really appreciate what they do. AA is AWSOME.....
 
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