Trouble with fishless cycle! Help please! :)

[Ulmina]

Okay, so I followed all the advice given and I feel like I ended up back in the same place. I was dosing the ammonia every other day (as this was when it had dripped to almost 0ppm) and things had seemed to be moving in the right direction again. Then a few days ago I dosed the ammonia again and now my levels have been around 1 ppm ammonia, nitrites off the charts, and nitrates haven't gone above 5 ppm or so at all. Is there any hope that my tank will cycle any time soon? I'm trying to remain hopeful, but I feel like no matter how closely I follow instructions, I end up back here. Should I just wait to see if the ammonia keeps dropping? It's going down, but it's going down incredibly slow the past few days. I appreciate the help!

I know I've read about it & it's supposed to be the primo modern way, but i have never used the pure ammonia -- or any bottled ammonia. How counter-intuitive lol. My honest feeling, though radical i'm sure, is I suggest you dump the whole set-up, rinse it all out (no soap, but swish and rub everything you can under running water with your hands -- and freakin' start over fresh. Do not use the stuff you used, just use some cheap tropical flakes in an amount like you were actually feeding some fish in there, and I think you'll be amazed. Don't do any water changes during the process and don't bother testing before the 3rd or 4th day, then no more than every 2 days. Keep adding a little food every day or 2 and have faith. I would put some real plants in there, too. I always have them.

Maybe there's some factor you've left out or don't know about that's preventing your getting the right advice -- but unless there's something weird that no one can think of, this should work.

Good luck and have fun.

 

[RedDevil83]

Never added ammonia, it just produces itself lol


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[Ulmina]

oh, DUH - HEY, DejaloLove -- Do not use Prime while cycling a tank! Prime is basically for water parameter emergencies in a stocked tank. You are shooting yourself in the foot. That went right by me 2 weeks ago...

I would still tear down and start all over, like I said above, since you do not have any fish in there. Just take a big breath & forget ALL the chemicals (except plain water conditioner like Aqueon's which you can get in a 16 oz bottle for around $10-12). You should not need to add anything else at all. The reason for the water conditioner is so the chlorine in tap water doesn't kill your bacteria colonies. (It's also for the fish, but that's later for you.)

 

[RedDevil83]

It's good to put a little good bacteria in the filter housing also but I agree water conditioner is really all you need.


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[Fresh2o]

...Then a few days ago I dosed the ammonia again and now my levels have been around 1 ppm ammonia, nitrites off the charts, and nitrates haven't gone above 5 ppm or so at all. Is there any hope that my tank will cycle any time soon?...

The nitrite to nitrate conversion can take several weeks.
What brand of ammonia are you using?
I would do water changes to get the nitrites below 5 ppm and shoot for 1-2 ppm ammonia. Elevated nitrite and stalled cycles have been observed on the this forum (former causes the latter).
If you can get a hold of established media then that would be ideal. Contact your lfs. There is a member in this forum that sells it. Available online as well (angelsplus.com) My last fishless cycle took about a week using established media from another tank.


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[Fresh2o]

oh, DUH - HEY, DejaloLove -- Do not use Prime while cycling a tank! Prime is basically for water parameter emergencies in a stocked tank. You are shooting yourself in the foot. That went right by me 2 weeks ago...
)

Please explain why Prime should not be used during cycling. Prime and other similar products will temporarily bind with ammonia (and nitrite and nitrate). The BB should still be able to use it.
http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=3983


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[Mebbid]

Prime is perfectly fine to use in a cycling tank.

Don't worry about the nitrate test. It's not important at all. This is especially true because the nitrate test reads nitrites in the water as well. The only 2 tests that matter are the ammonia and nitrite.

What is the tank pH?
Have you ever changed your filter cartridge?
What test kit are you using?

Over the next 2 - 3 days test your ammonia / nitrites / pH daily and write them down in a log book. Then you can post that here so we can see in an easier format exactly what's going on.

 

[DejaloLove]

I was a little confused about the issue with prime since I've been following this tutorial (http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...guide-and-faq-to-fishless-cycling-148283.html) and it specifically said to use it, so I'm glad that's cleared up!

As for the answers to the rest of the questions:

-My tank's pH is 6.4 right now.
-I've only changed the carbon insert in the filter. I have the aqueoun filter and haven't touched the foam insert or the biomax.
-I'm using the API Master Test Kit
-I'm using the ace hardware janitorial strength ammonia (the one recommended in the tutorial referenced above)

So should I do water changes to bring the nitrites down to a readable level again? Or should I just test the levels (ph, ammonia, and nirtites) for the next few days and go from there? I just tested them all again and it hasn't budged at all since last night. Thank you all so much (again) for the help!!

 

[Mebbid]

-My tank's pH is 6.4 right now.
-I've only changed the carbon insert in the filter. I have the aqueoun filter and haven't touched the foam insert or the biomax.

These here are your problems.

At about 6.5 pH the growth of nitrifying bacteria slows down to a crawl and gets slower the lower it gets. When it hits around 6.0 all nitrification stops. So your pH is too low. I would suggest putting a handfull of crushed coral in a mesh filter bag and stick it in your filter. This will help buffer the pH a bit to keep it out of the range where it inhibits your BB. When the lights are out the pH will drop even more so that will compound your problem.

Beneficial bacteria also consume some of the elements that keep the pH up in the aquarium (dKH) in particular so it's common to see a mid cycle drop in pH if the water is soft.

Also, you don't need to change the carbon insert. Bacteria will grow on that as well so changing it out just gets rid of some of the bacteria you're trying to grow. It's also not necessary at all.

Sorry it took soo long to get this information

To everyone else watching this thread, tank pH is KEY when there are fishless cycle problems, or even any cycling problems. The water source pH isn't really important as it will usually change once it gets in the tank.

 

[DejaloLove]

Thank you so much for the information! I'm totally new to this, so I really appreciate it. The pH was at 7.6 the last time I checked it, but I hadn't been keeping an eye on it because I didn't realize it was needed at this point in the process.

So a water change wouldn't help get the pH where it needs to be? I read somewhere that it would, but wasn't sure how true that is. If not, where would I get crushed coral and a bag to put it in? Would they have it at a place like petsmart or would I need to get it from a lfs?

 

[Mebbid]

Thank you so much for the information! I'm totally new to this, so I really appreciate it. The pH was at 7.6 the last time I checked it, but I hadn't been keeping an eye on it because I didn't realize it was needed at this point in the process.

So a water change wouldn't help get the pH where it needs to be? I read somewhere that it would, but wasn't sure how true that is. If not, where would I get crushed coral and a bag to put it in? Would they have it at a place like petsmart or would I need to get it from a lfs?

To tell you for sure we would need to know your dKH as well as your tap water pH after it sits out overnight.

The bag and crushed coral can be bought at pet smart.

 

[DejaloLove]

And with the filter, you don't change any of the media ever? I feel like there is so much conflicting information out there it's hard to keep track of what is right. I was told by a friend of mine who has the same filter and a lot more experience than I do to change the carbon insert once a month and just rinse out the foam insert every 4-6 months. Just trying to get it all straight so we can give our fish a good home.

 

[DejaloLove]

I will be going to petsmart tomorrow then. Do you think a water change should be done in the mean time? Or once the coral does its thing and gets the pH level where it needs to be, should it all work out on its own?

 

[Mebbid]

And with the filter, you don't change any of the media ever? I feel like there is so much conflicting information out there it's hard to keep track of what is right. I was told by a friend of mine who has the same filter and a lot more experience than I do to change the carbon insert once a month and just rinse out the foam insert every 4-6 months. Just trying to get it all straight so we can give our fish a good home.

The only real reason you need carbon in your tank is to remove tannins and medications. Tannins can be more effectively removed with purigen which doesn't have to be replaced more than once or twice a year or so. It's good to have carbon on hand, but there's no reason to use it regularly.

I will be going to petsmart tomorrow then. Do you think a water change should be done in the mean time? Or once the coral does its thing and gets the pH level where it needs to be, should it all work out on its own?

It wouldn't hurt to do a 50% water change.

 

[DejaloLove]

You are a lifesaver! I was so not looking forward to the idea of having to start over. I will do the water change tonight and pick up some coral tomorrow.

 

[Mebbid]

You are a lifesaver! I was so not looking forward to the idea of having to start over. I will do the water change tonight and pick up some coral tomorrow.

Carib Sea Aquarium Crushed Coral Gravel | Gravel & Sand | PetSmart

 

[Ulmina]

It's good to put a little good bacteria in the filter housing also but I agree water conditioner is really all you need.


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Forgot about that, yes! I agree. I use SeaChem's Stability. Does help speed up colonization.

It's very important to have a lot of colonizable surfaces in the aquarium. I avoid coated rocks and like to add a sponge, even if it's just a "sponge sock" over the intake tube.

 

[Ulmina]

Please explain why Prime should not be used during cycling. Prime and other similar products will temporarily bind with ammonia (and nitrite and nitrate). The BB should still be able to use it.
Prime questions... - Seachem Support Forums


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Okay, maybe I was wrong.

It's not something I personally have done or would do -- seems highly counter-intuitive. I would consider it an interruption of the cycling process, but you and Mebbid seem to know more than i do about it. I would not have guessed that the beneficial bacteria would still be able to use it.

Thanks for stepping in.

 

[Mebbid]

Okay, maybe I was wrong.

It's not something I personally have done or would do -- seems highly counter-intuitive. I would consider it an interruption of the cycling process, but you and Mebbid seem to know more than i do about it. I would not have guessed that the beneficial bacteria would still be able to use it.

Thanks for stepping in.

Prime converts ammonia into less toxic ammonium which is still a readily available source of nitrogen for the plants. In general, the ammonia / ammonium levels are constantly in flux in an aquarium with detectable level of ammonia depending primarily on the temperature and the pH. The API kit reads both so that's why you can't differentiate.

Take a read here
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/your-guide-to-ammonia-toxicity-159994.html

 

[Fresh2o]

Okay, maybe I was wrong.

It's not something I personally have done or would do -- seems highly counter-intuitive. I would consider it an interruption of the cycling process, but you and Mebbid seem to know more than i do about it. I would not have guessed that the beneficial bacteria would still be able to use it.

Thanks for stepping in.

I don't know more; I've seen that question come up several times on this and other forums. Anyhow, since the effects of Prime are temporary, if it actually affected the ammonia in a negative way (from the beneficial bacteria's viewpoint) it would only be for a day or so.
Feeding the tank fish food makes sense in such that it's how nutrients are introduced when fish are present. However, ammonia would not be present immediately; the heterotrophic bacteria and fungi will need to break it down and metabolize it first. It can still be done but not everyone is that patient. Putting the fish food in a nylon bag will make it easier to clean up (SW folks do that same thing with shrimp from the grocery store).


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