Underfeeding or Natural Fish Behavior

[SparKy697]

I think that there is much information to support your position on fasting in humans.

I also believe that it is not uncommon for animals in the wild to go more than a day without feeding. ESPECIALLY cold blooded animals. In a past life when I kept fish, I was seldom home on the weekends and my fish did not typically get fed at all for those two days. They did quite well too.

I suspect that there are many more pet fish that die from over feeding than fish that die from starvation.

[7Enigma]

Completely agree. I think the gorge, starve cycle is the rule rather than the exception in the wild, both warm and cold-blooded. And in captivity, especially in our hobby, overfeeding is probably the #1 cause of death due to ammonia poisoning (in new tanks) and/or nitrAte poisoning (in established tanks over a long period of time with poor maintainence).

[hc8719]

you can't just through my example down because i used humans, i could of chosen any animal.

regardless, none of you mentioned prior to sparky's post that you gorge your fish after a "fast"

again tell the judge you weren't "starving your kids" you were just fasting them (which some of you have said is good for all animals, including humans)

i think slightly overfed is better than slightly underfed. this fasting could get quite dangerous, as sparky's articles mentioned if not done carefully. seriously, whens the last time you saw an obese lethargic fish?

btw sparky, do you know if those studies were double blind studies?

[SparKy697]

btw sparky, do you know if those studies were double blind studies?

No I do not. Honestly I was just doing a search because I wanted to see what info was out there after reading this post. What I was actually looking for is an article that I had read some time ago about how limiting calories in adults (humans) was leading to a longer life span. I was unable to find it though.

I'm mixed about the topic. I do however believe that animals in the wild, not including humans, do not eat with anywhere near the regularity as humans do. I do not think that anybody is advocating that we starve our fish. I also believe that we have a tendency to impose our habits on our pets, fish included. Fish have been known to die from over feeding. And that is not from one great big meal, it's from consistent feeding over a long period. There is a reason that fish will tend to eat whenever food is present. Their primitive brain tells them to eat now because you do not know when the next meal is going to present itself.

We go to great extents to mimic nature in our little boxes of water with almost every other aspect of fish keeping, why not try to mimic the feeding habits as well?

[7Enigma]

Originally Posted by hc8719

you can't just through my example down because i used humans, i could of chosen any animal.

No you couldn't have. You need to understand that all species are not the same. Some can breath air, some breath water, some cold-blooded, some warm-blooded, some can withstand incredible temperatures, some can live in incredibly acidic/alkaline environments, some NATURALLY eat only every couple weeks/months (snakes), some need to constantly feed (flies), some need air to survive (aerobic bacteria), some will die in the presence of it (anaerobic bacteria), some can hibernate (bears/koi/snails), some never sleep at all (bullfrog). The point is that each species requires different conditions for survival, there is no blanket statement that can apply to even a majority.

regardless, none of you mentioned prior to sparky's post that you gorge your fish after a "fast"

Most of us don't. What we didn't mention is that in the wild your next meal might be right around the corner, or it might never come. A good hypothesis is that the fish's lack of knowing when to stop eating might be a survival method that has become an evolutionary trait. In times of bountiful food, some of the fish might die from overeating. But in times of starvation, ONLY those fish that ate and ate and ate would have survived to spawn.

again tell the judge you weren't "starving your kids" you were just fasting them (which some of you have said is good for all animals, including humans)

As previously mentioned many cultures and religions fast. So do the children of those parents. I'm not one to tell someone else how to raise their children, so I'm not going to get into that argument. For the record you need to revisit the definition of starving:

"Starvation is a severe reduction in vitamin, nutrient, and energy intake, and is the most extreme form of malnutrition. In humans, prolonged starvation (in excess of 1-2 months) causes permanent organ damage and will eventually result in death."

i think slightly overfed is better than slightly underfed. this fasting could get quite dangerous, as sparky's articles mentioned if not done carefully. seriously, whens the last time you saw an obese lethargic fish?

You think? Or you know? I don't know the answer to your proposition, but I'm not making a case saying its bad. The burden of proof is on you.

As for the fish comment not often. Most times they are malnourished at the LFS due to shipping, and most times overfed fish are dead before they get a chance to become obese. That is because most people in this hobby don't do proper maintenance on their tanks such as PWC's. The ones that overfeed will succumb to the ammonia/nitrIte/nitrAte before those underfed.

btw sparky, do you know if those studies were double blind studies?

Because we all know that scientists can't be trusted right?

[Ky'smommy]

ok im not saying im agreeing or not. i feed all my fish every day 1-3 times.
But my sister had a betta in one of those tiny tiny box/bowl thingys.
She thought he had died. And left the poor thing like that...
A month later (seriously) i was talkng on the phone with her and she started to freak out that it was still ALIVE.
i couldnt beleive she would leave a dead fish in a tank for a month either but she did.
Ewww.
no waterchanges/no food this fish lived a month with nothing in a tiny bowl. where my dad then rescued him and put him in a ten gallon.
i was just stating the point the fish lived a month and then for about 3-6 months after that..
which i would say the lifespan was drastically shortened. considering she got her betta long after me and mines still alive.
but she is irresponsible and doesnt care. so she should not be allowed any living creature as a pet.

[7Enigma]

Originally Posted by Ky'smommy

ok im not saying im agreeing or not. i feed all my fish every day 1-3 times.
But my sister had a betta in one of those tiny tiny box/bowl thingys.
She thought he had died. And left the poor thing like that...
A month later (seriously) i was talkng on the phone with her and she started to freak out that it was still ALIVE.
i couldnt beleive she would leave a dead fish in a tank for a month either but she did.
Ewww.
no waterchanges/no food this fish lived a month with nothing in a tiny bowl. where my dad then rescued him and put him in a ten gallon.
i was just stating the point the fish lived a month and then for about 3-6 months after that..
which i would say the lifespan was drastically shortened. considering she got her betta long after me and mines still alive.
but she is irresponsible and doesnt care. so she should not be allowed any living creature as a pet.

Betta's can breath air from the surface so they survive much better in stagnant water than other fish. Animals metabolism's also drastically slow during starvation, and betta's are low waste producers to begin with. It is a horrible story to be sure, but shows just how long things can survive when needed.

[hc8719]

7enigma, lets just agree to disagree.

if you are feeding your fish what they can eat in a few minutes each day, a couple times daily, you arent overfeeding your fish. your making if sound as if that is what overfeeding is. overfeeding is dumping and dumping fish food in, and i've seen my fish actually stop eatting.

about the "fasting kids thing" again, whether or not it meets the official deffinition of starving (which i think can start at a few days, not a month or 2) do you, hypothetically think you can persuade a jury that you were fasting your kids for their health?

personally if i lived in a box, i'd think at least one benefit would be a few meals a day.

as far as your comment on my double blind study question 7enigma, scientist can be biased even sub-conciously, thats why they have double blind studies, people naturally see their side of things as right, so someone who doesn't know which group is which, can make honest evaluations

[vfc]

Fish food is the overwhelming source of all ammonia/nitrite/nitrates in a tank. Secondary sources like; adding new fish, water changes, and rotting drift wood, typically have a much smaller impact.

In the average household tank (excluding us who don't have a life other then keeping fish) it would be far better to feed a group of fish all they could eat in a minute each day rather than all they can eat in five minutes. Everything a fish consumes is converted to waste (liquid, solid, respiration) or growth. Growth doesn't directly cause waste; it only increases the future amount of food to waste conversion. Regarding uneaten food; 100% of eaten food ultimately is converted to ammonia, whereas only a portion of uneaten food is converted (uneaten food is caught in the filter media and removed when we do filter maintenance or vacuumed up in the gravel during a water change). Most eaten food is converted within hours (liquid & respiration), uneaten food takes days and accumulates with each overlapping day.

If the fish are fed less (including skipping a day) the nitrate build up will be significantly less; allowing for the average fish tank keeper to go longer before they perform a water change. The typical fish keeper also may not perform filter maintenance and gravel vacs as often as "us"; so the one minute feedings will not allow any food to go uneaten.

So IMO, less is better!

[hc8719]

Originally Posted by vfc

so the one minute feedings will not allow any food to go uneaten.

what? that doesn't even make sense...