Water change or no water change?

[Anna94]

Should I do a water change before adding new fish? I just did a water change on Friday, but I was going to buy new fish today and I just fed the ones I have.

 

[nirbhao]

Weekly water changes are good as long as your parameters are healthy and stable.

 

[Anna94]

So if I don't do a water change before adding new fish, I'll be fine

 

[Andy Sager]

Should I do a water change before adding new fish? I just did a water change on Friday, but I was going to buy new fish today and I just fed the ones I have.

It's always best for the new fish for you to do your routine water changes prior to adding the new fish. This way, they have some time to adjust to the new water you just put them in before needing to adjust to the water change. Water changes also stress the fish to some degree and can cause some diseases to enact so the object is to keep the new fish as stress free as possible.
That all said, the best thing to do is to put the new fish into a quarantine tank for observation before adding them to your main tank. Since you don't know what "hitchhikers" may be coming in on these new fish, a QT tank will help them better get adjusted and should they get sick, they would not infect the whole tank.

 

[Anna94]

I don't have the room or money for a quarantine tank.

 

[Caliban07]

It's always best for the new fish for you to do your routine water changes prior to adding the new fish. This way, they have some time to adjust to the new water you just put them in before needing to adjust to the water change. Water changes also stress the fish to some degree and can cause some diseases to enact so the object is to keep the new fish as stress free as possible.
That all said, the best thing to do is to put the new fish into a quarantine tank for observation before adding them to your main tank. Since you don't know what "hitchhikers" may be coming in on these new fish, a QT tank will help them better get adjusted and should they get sick, they would not infect the whole tank.

Quarantine tanks are often bare, with no substrate or decor except the odd PVC pipe, minimal to no tank mates. Some people dose quarantine tanks 'just in case'. It's another tank to acclimate to before the final destination.

I get why people use quarantine tanks. It makes sense so no issue with the concept but I often wonder whether these holding tanks are more stressful in the long run. If water changes can stress them surely so can the above.

 

[Andy Sager]

Quarantine tanks are often bare, with no substrate or decor except the odd PVC pipe, minimal to no tank mates. Some people dose quarantine tanks 'just in case'. It's another tank to acclimate to before the final destination.

I get why people use quarantine tanks. It makes sense so no issue with the concept but I often wonder whether these holding tanks are more stressful in the long run. If water changes can stress them surely so can the above.

To properly do long term quarantining, you don't keep these fish under those circumstances over the entire quarantining time. What you are describing is the first stage of QT. You want nowhere for a parasite to hide or breed and a tank where medicating the fish, if necessary, can be done more effectively. Usually a sick fish will break down within a week or 2 or sometimes sooner. Once the time frame for this is over, the fish are then transferred to a tank that is set up like a DT in order for the fish to get used to a new feeding schedule, foods, and typical water parameters. Since this tank should have water parameters kept similar to the display tank, there is no second acclimation to a new water. So the first "tank" does not have to be an expensive or elaborate set up or even a fish "tank".

That all said, one has to decide what is more sensible for them: shooting craps that they won't lose an entire tank of fish by a new sick fish or setting up a tank to prevent this. Some people have a lot of money invested in their prime set ups and medicating is not an option for them. I would think that they would want to do whatever they can to prevent a total wipeout. Considering that most places today don't have good systems to contain sickness within their system, it is truly a crap shoot. How would you feel if you lost a fish you've had for years due to a new fish bringing something into the tank? FYI, it happens often. Just read the threads on this forum.

 

[Caliban07]

How would you feel if you lost a fish you've had for years due to a new fish bringing something into the tank? FYI, it happens often. Just read the threads on this forum.

Thanks Andy. I was hoping to avoid this line of questioning. As mentioned I am not struggling with the logic behind QT. For many QT is just not practical even when using only one tank and now there is another? That said, I'd be surprised if the new addition didn't show signs of disease after all the stress of all these changes. A discussion for another thread perhaps.

 

[abw0004]

I would also recommend a quarantine tank. I was stubborn for a year and didn't want to spend money on a quarantine tank. Turned out the new fish had ich and flukes and infected everyone else. It's like if you are in a room with another sick person, everyone else will get sick also. And flukes are incredibly hard to completely get rid of. You run the risk of infecting your whole tank with you new fish, and it sounds like you are getting your fish from Petco or Petsmart judging by your other thread which is more reason to quarantine your fish as they are known to be sick from there.

Much easier to do water 50% changes in a small quarantine tank, than your main tank. You will thank us later if you bite the bullet and get a QT.

I know that is not an answer you want to hear with me saying to spend money on a QT, but you will save money and your fish's lives in the long run. And it is a one time purchase to get a tank. Petco usually goes a $1 per gallon sale and a 10 gallon tank would be sufficient.

Go on my page and look at the threads I created back in 2014 and look at all of the problems I had because I didn't use a QT and I still got my fish from PetCo. I just don't want you to make the mistakes I made. It was very stressful for me, and I felt like I was hurting my fish which made me want to quit altogether. I hope this helps!

 

[Andy Sager]

Thanks Andy. I was hoping to avoid this line of questioning. As mentioned I am not struggling with the logic behind QT. For many QT is just not practical even when using only one tank and now there is another? That said, I'd be surprised if the new addition didn't show signs of disease after all the stress of all these changes. A discussion for another thread perhaps.

For me, it's not a matter of logic vs practicality. It's about realistic vs blind hope, finger's crossed, I'll just take my chances. As it was once said to me: Why would you buy a dog if you didn't want to feed it? Buy a car if you didn't want to buy fuel for it? ( and today, even with hybrid and electric cars it still could be asked because you have to pay for the electric to charge it. ) or now, in this case, buy fish if you don't want protect them to live a good life?
That's been my mantra for decades now because it works and the truth.

 

[Caliban07]

For me, it's not a matter of logic vs practicality. It's about realistic vs blind hope, finger's crossed, I'll just take my chances. As it was once said to me: Why would you buy a dog if you didn't want to feed it? Buy a car if you didn't want to buy fuel for it? ( and today, even with hybrid and electric cars it still could be asked because you have to pay for the electric to charge it. ) or now, in this case, buy fish if you don't want protect them to live a good life?
That's been my mantra for decades now because it works and the truth.

Unfortunately, For many, probably the majority actually, it is about logic vs practicality and to expect everyone to follow the same mantra it unrealistic.

My original point is that if changing water for new fish is stressful then so is placing them in a quarantine tank.

 

[Andy Sager]

My original point is that if changing water for new fish is stressful then so is placing them in a quarantine tank.

Unfortunately, the facts don't back up your statement. The degree of stress differs with the amount of change. But it's not my dime that get's lost.

 

[abw0004]

Quarantine tanks are almost a must. If you are worried about the quarantine tank being too stressful, do what I do and put things in the tank to seem more "homely." For example, I put a few red solo cups in my tank (some upright, some on their side) so it breaks their line of sight across the tank. I also put a thin layer of sand on the bottom. Clean water helps fish recover and build strength. And if it turns out the fish is actually sick, much easier to do 50% water changes in a 10 gallon quarantine tank, than your main tank that is 25G+. And the degree of difficulty changes if more fish get sick because every fish handles sickness differently.

 

[Caliban07]

Unfortunately, the facts don't back up your statement. The degree of stress differs with the amount of change. But it's not my dime that get's lost.

You never give in do you Andy [emoji23] Good for you. You said water changes will stress the fish if that is true then so does this.



Whether quarantine tanks are a necessity or not surely you cannot disagree with this? Whilst I am not anti quarantine per se, I just don't think there is a great way to do it.

 

[Andy Sager]

You never give in do you Andy [emoji23] Good for you. You said water changes will stress the fish if that is true then so does this.

View attachment 291945

Whether quarantine tanks are a necessity or not surely you cannot disagree with this? Whilst I am not anti quarantine per se, I just don't think there is a great way to do it.

I don't give in, when I know I'm right. What you are showing is not a good QT tank because if this was the first part of QT, it should not be so brightly lit. If this was the second part of QT, it should be a more decorated tank.
So when done PROPERLY, a QT tank is not as stressful as the tank you posted.
Now, regarding stress and water changes, can you honestly say that changing 10% of volume is as stressful as changing 50% or more of volume?
In case you think it is, it isn't. But what I'm saying is that when you add a new fish to a tank, you are changing the water on the fish. To then do another water change right after adding the new fish, even a 10% change is more stressful than the fish should have to go through so the fish is more stressed than if it just went through a basic 10% change.

Hope that clears things up.

 

[nirbhao]

That tank makes me so sad!

 

[fishychick]

Should I do a water change before adding new fish? I just did a water change on Friday, but I was going to buy new fish today and I just fed the ones I have.

I would do a PWC before you add new fish just so your water quality is as good as possible to introduce the new fish into. Remember to introduce them gradually and keep an eye on your parameters since you are increasing your bio load. I'm no expert, that's just my opinion. Hope that helps. . Congrats on the new fish!

 

[Caliban07]

I would do a PWC before you add new fish just so your water quality is as good as possible to introduce the new fish into. Remember to introduce them gradually and keep an eye on your parameters since you are increasing your bio load. I'm no expert, that's just my opinion. Hope that helps. . Congrats on the new fish!

This is the reason I would do a partial water change before introducing a new. Fish.

I don't give in, when I know I'm right. What you are showing is not a good QT tank because if this was the first part of QT, it should not be so brightly lit. If this was the second part of QT, it should be a more decorated tank.

So when done PROPERLY, a QT tank is not as stressful as the tank you posted.

Now, regarding stress and water changes, can you honestly say that changing 10% of volume is as stressful as changing 50% or more of volume?

In case you think it is, it isn't. But what I'm saying is that when you add a new fish to a tank, you are changing the water on the fish. To then do another water change right after adding the new fish, even a 10% change is more stressful than the fish should have to go through so the fish is more stressed than if it just went through a basic 10% change.



Hope that clears things up.

Of course a 10% water change is not as stressful as a 50% water change but nowhere in your original text did you mention amounts.

Also, the tank in the picture is apparently the gold standard for QT. Just look online. I am not familiar with your methods, I don't think it's common practice at all. It certainly won't be in any of your books either I'm sure [emoji6] so it looks like you are the only person who knows how to do a quarantine properly. [emoji106]

When you add a new fish to a tank it can takes any number of days/weeks to fully acclimatise. There are a whole number of physiological changes the fish has to go through. Some do well, some don't but are fine after a few days. The species of fish is important too because some are very shy by nature etc.

That tank makes me so sad!

Me too but this is what the majority of QT tanks look like. It's practical, it saves the display tank from disease and keeps a dime in your pocket. Everyone's a winner except the fish that has to endure this for any given number of weeks.

This is why I take my chances. I don't by on impulse anymore. You can irradiate the chances of most disease or ill fish visually. Scope the place out for a couple of weeks. Know when new fish have been delivered etc. I've been stung a couple of times. Once I should never have purchased the fish because it was clearly sick and I got ich which was taken care of by increasing heat. However it's is dressed, in my opinion you cannot make a QT tank where the fish is not subjected to some degree of stress whilst keeping things practical. Two stage QT tanks in a small terrace house would just be silly.

I think I shall unsubscribe at this point because this is a discussion for another thread.

 

[flchamp89]

This is the reason I would do a partial water change before introducing a new. Fish.




Of course a 10% water change is not as stressful as a 50% water change but nowhere in your original text did you mention amounts.

Also, the tank in the picture is apparently the gold standard for QT. Just look online. I am not familiar with your methods, I don't think it's common practice at all. It certainly won't be in any of your books either I'm sure [emoji6] so it looks like you are the only person who knows how to do a quarantine properly. [emoji106]

When you add a new fish to a tank it can takes any number of days/weeks to fully acclimatise. There are a whole number of physiological changes the fish has to go through. Some do well, some don't but are fine after a few days. The species of fish is important too because some are very shy by nature etc.




Me too but this is what the majority of QT tanks look like. It's practical, it saves the display tank from disease and keeps a dime in your pocket. Everyone's a winner except the fish that has to endure this for any given number of weeks.

This is why I take my chances. I don't by on impulse anymore. You can irradiate the chances of most disease or ill fish visually. Scope the place out for a couple of weeks. Know when new fish have been delivered etc. I've been stung a couple of times. Once I should never have purchased the fish because it was clearly sick and I got ich which was taken care of by increasing heat. However it's is dressed, in my opinion you cannot make a QT tank where the fish is not subjected to some degree of stress whilst keeping things practical. Two stage QT tanks in a small terrace house would just be silly.

I think I shall unsubscribe at this point because this is a discussion for another thread.

This has been me. Ive never had a QT. I think majority of people buy on impulse.

 

[Caliban07]

This has been me. Ive never had a QT. I think majority of people buy on impulse.

I wouldn't feel bad about this although my advice would be to avoid impulse buys. Now let me ask, how would you feel if I asked you why you do not want to protect your fish from living a good life?