Water Hardness

[Mazdaman]

ok... so i just spent the last hour reading the [acronym:66ae7644c7="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]ph[/acronym:66ae7644c7] debate in the "monster island" i think. Great discussion... learned alot and now need to learn more. I thought it might be a good idea to get some opinions and thoughts about water hardness and how important that factor is. The reason i want to hear about hardness is i know mine is hard. It's hard out of the tap and thus hard water in the tank. My [acronym:66ae7644c7="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]ph[/acronym:66ae7644c7] has always been a little high, (approx. 7.8, drip test tubes, lets not get started on how big/small the drips were) i'm confident that a stable [acronym:66ae7644c7="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]ph[/acronym:66ae7644c7] is better than trying to reach an "ideal or optimal" [acronym:66ae7644c7="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]ph[/acronym:66ae7644c7] through additives and what not... My question is can one soften the water with simple and inexpensive methods? I have a 20 [acronym:66ae7644c7="Gallon"]gal[/acronym:66ae7644c7] now but will be getting a lerger tank very soon and would like to start that one perfectly. The 20gal was to see if I would still be interested later on and I am.... thanks in advance

[BASSNMAN]

Drift wood will lower your ph some. You can always get live plants and a co2 system and adjust your ph quite a bit. My planted 50 gal has wood and Co2. My normal ph is 7.8 but now stays at 6.9 to 7.0.

[TankGirl]

Soft and hard is different than pH, so I want to be clear what you would like to accomplish. If you are talking about [acronym:ba335c77f5="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:ba335c77f5] and alkalinity, the best way to lower them is to simply mix your tap water with R/O water. You can bring your pH down with [acronym:ba335c77f5="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:ba335c77f5], but you need moderate alkalinity (aka [acronym:ba335c77f5="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:ba335c77f5]) to accomplish this, so high [acronym:ba335c77f5="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:ba335c77f5] test readings would be beneficial. This will not affect the [acronym:ba335c77f5="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:ba335c77f5].

There are not that many fish that you would hesitate to keep in water with a pH of 7.8, so it might be more trouble than it is worth.

If you want to consider Africans you are good to go!

[TomK2]

Last time I read through a hard/soft discussion I learned that water softeners exchange the "hard" cations like calcium, magnesium for sodium. Thus [acronym:7858925b43="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:7858925b43] goes down ([acronym:7858925b43="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:7858925b43] is a measure of the ++ cations like calcium) but it will not change [acronym:7858925b43="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:7858925b43], which is carbonate hardness. Perhaps it is less confusing to think of [acronym:7858925b43="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:7858925b43] or carbonate hardness as "alkalinity," since lots of carbonate will buffer the water to a higher pH. Lower alkalinity ([acronym:7858925b43="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:7858925b43] or carbonate) generally gives lower pH. One nice thing about water with high carbonate is that the pH tends to be very stable, although high. I have never tried to alter water hardness or pH, but from what I have read peat is a good way. The peat will lower [acronym:7858925b43="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:7858925b43], [acronym:7858925b43="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:7858925b43], and will lower the pH. It is probably easiest to do with a canister filter, and having a peat chamber will slowly lower the hardness and pH over time. Mixing distilled or reverse osmosis water with tap water during water changes will also work, but seems like more work? Again, I am not speaking from personal experience.

Like TG, the real question is WHY to do it. Chances are your [acronym:7858925b43="Local Fish Store"]LFS[/acronym:7858925b43] has many locally bred fish that are totally adapted to your local tap water. I would think that it would be only wild caught fish that would struggle in the local tap water. Unless you are looking for a new challenge, pick the fish that thrive in your tap water for the best long term satisfaction and success.

[TankGirl]

I agree - we should try to avoid using the term [acronym:9e66f2dc8a="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:9e66f2dc8a] in favor of alkalinity.

[tiptoptank]

My water out of the tap it 7.8 with a [acronym:473079e8b9="Carbonate Hardness"]kh[/acronym:473079e8b9] of 8 and a [acronym:473079e8b9="General Hardness"]gh[/acronym:473079e8b9] of 10+. The water in my tank is [acronym:473079e8b9="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]PH[/acronym:473079e8b9] of 6.8 [acronym:473079e8b9="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:473079e8b9] of 5 [acronym:473079e8b9="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:473079e8b9] of 3.

It is always like this. I did it with a big piece of driftwood, about 60 pants and a co2 setup. The Co2 lowers the [acronym:473079e8b9="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]PH[/acronym:473079e8b9] and [acronym:473079e8b9="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:473079e8b9], and the driftwood absorbs the [acronym:473079e8b9="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:473079e8b9]. I would say the best way to achieve a lower [acronym:473079e8b9="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]PH[/acronym:473079e8b9] and [acronym:473079e8b9="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:473079e8b9] is to go planted with co2.

I would suggest doing a [acronym:473079e8b9="Do it yourself"]DIY[/acronym:473079e8b9] co2 setup on a 20 gallon. It will cost you about 2 bucks a month. But, if you don't want to be testing and makeing sure the co2 isn't to high I would say go with a pressurized system. THey are about 250$ but, one tank lasts many months and the co2 flow is perfect. PM if you have any questions. I am always here to help.

[humpty]

Originally Posted by tiptoptank

It is always like this. I did it with a big piece of driftwood, about 60 pants and a co2 setup.

I have always heard that you didn't need Co2 for keeping "pants".

Sorry I couldn't resist!

humpty

[Mazdaman]

hey thanks all, so for so good. It isn't so much that I am "trying to achieve something" but more looking for general consensus much like the debate over [acronym:47ae2f8c44="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]PH[/acronym:47ae2f8c44] that stable water conditions ([acronym:47ae2f8c44="Carbonate Hardness"]KH[/acronym:47ae2f8c44], [acronym:47ae2f8c44="General Hardness"]GH[/acronym:47ae2f8c44] and [acronym:47ae2f8c44="power head or Measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions, depending on context"]PH[/acronym:47ae2f8c44]) is better than always trying to "achieve the perfect levels" Part of the reason is that I am looking into getting a few fish that are onyl wild caught (red-lined shark) that is said to prefer (thrive) in softer water. They are kept at a big als locally so I imagine the water there is pretty much the same as mine. Also this would not be for my 20 [acronym:47ae2f8c44="Gallon"]gal[/acronym:47ae2f8c44] (which as a small leak starting, luckily it is right at the very top corner so not a huge deal - Hopefully) it will be for a 55gal which will be setup sooner now due to the leak starting on the 20gal (good news in a way). I will most likely not be going planted so that option is out. Driftwood turns the water a tan like color which is something i do not want... Well now I'm just blabbing so I'll turn the "floor" over to the more experienced folks for some more info. Thanks again for the replies.

[tiptoptank]

Get driftwood from http://www.floridadriftwood.com/store.asp . There driftwood is amazing. I got mine and there was no tannins in it at all. I just threw it in and it's perfect. Check out my gallery. THat peice of wood was 50 bucks with shipping. It wieghs about 10 pounds. THey also have a large verity. I like them becuase the picture of the driftwood is actually the excat peice that you get so you know exactly what your getting.