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Old 12-31-2005, 03:41 AM   #1
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water temp question

ok I did about a 50% water change and added my heater to my tank. it use to be about 70 to 74 degrees, now its about 78. the fish are all over the tank swimming up and down the glass walls, playing with each other. is it possible that this new temp is more likable for them or just the fresh water? are they seeing their reflection is that why they move up and down etc.
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Old 12-31-2005, 04:02 AM   #2
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Probably both....the increased temperature will speed up their metabolism some, and they will be enjoying the fresh water....the reason why frequent water changes are such a good idea. However, a jump from 70ºF to 78ºF too quickly may cause some of your fish some serious stress....a 2-4 degree difference is no big issue, but 8 degrees is a bit much.
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Old 12-31-2005, 04:03 AM   #3
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78 is perfect. That's where I keep my tanks. 70 is just way too cold, unless you are keeping colder water fish like goldies and dojo loaches. My dojo does awsome at 78 too.
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Old 12-31-2005, 07:06 AM   #4
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I agree that the temperature jump may have stressed them but they will probably be a lot happier and active in this temperature. I keep both of my tanks at about 78-80.
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Old 12-31-2005, 12:18 PM   #5
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I have yet to hear of an actual case of warmer water stressing a fish. You can put a fish into 10 degree warmer water with no problems (I have done it), but not into colder. Whenever I change water, the new water is normally warmer than the tank.
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Old 12-31-2005, 01:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD
I have yet to hear of an actual case of warmer water stressing a fish. You can put a fish into 10 degree warmer water with no problems (I have done it), but not into colder. Whenever I change water, the new water is normally warmer than the tank.
Same here. If I can't the water in the python exactly the same, it's generally a little warmer, not colder.
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Old 12-31-2005, 01:46 PM   #7
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Fish have no physiologic control over their body temperature, so any big change in water temp (up or down) is sure to be an unwelcome shock to their system.
However, drastically going from warm to cool is much more likely to cause stress and possible death than is going from cool to warm.

I keep all my tanks at 78 - 80 degrees.
When I've treated for ich in the past, I've knocked up the temp to 88 degrees within a few hours with no fish losses - I just made sure to increase the aeration.

But, one time, I purchased some black phantom tetras in the winter, and I forgot to bring along my styrofoam shipping carton. When I got them home, they were very lethargic - I checked the bag temp, and it was 68 degrees. I floated the bag for a long time, and drip acclimated the fish, but the damage had been done - they were all goners.
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Old 12-31-2005, 07:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD
I have yet to hear of an actual case of warmer water stressing a fish.
Then I am afraid that you have not seen much. It is not as stressful as a drop in temperature, but it does stress the fish, and enough of a jump, quickly enough (like a sudden increase of 8º-10ºF) can and will kill a number of species of fish.
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Old 01-02-2006, 05:03 AM   #9
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Again, I have yet to hear of a specific case of a higher temp of 8 to 10 degrees F killing a fish, assuming it is still in the proper temprature range (lets say from 66 to 76 or 76 to 86.). Perhaps you can enlighten me, Toirtis. As an aside, perhaps you could describe stress in fish, as you understand it, so we can be on the same page. I think that might make a good thread on it's own. I think I'll start that one now.
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Old 01-02-2006, 12:41 PM   #10
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BillD-

While I agree that fish can and do experience temp changes in the wild, I suppose that much of the temp fluctuations they see are under their control. Too cold here? swim over there where its warmer. Too warm here? swim a little deeper where its colder. And they get to do it at the rate that they want. In a fish tank, they have no control or choice. I also used to find it hard to beleive that such a thing should be lethal, but I can't ignore the vast experience of aquarists that overwhelmingly suggests that constant perameters vastly improve outcome.

I have not played with my heater to test this theory, never had a heater break, so I am one who strives to keep things as constant as possible. Sure, if we regularly fluctuated our tanks we would select out fish that can stand such things, and probably improve the vitality of the fish stock, but how many fish would we loose in the process?
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Old 01-02-2006, 02:54 PM   #11
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I would disagree that fish have control over their environment.While tropical fiah come from fairly stable environments, you do get fluctuations in temp and water parameters, with changes in the weather. They adapt to these changes. there are exceptions, of course. The Graet Lakes are a good example, where you sometimes get huge die offs of Alewife, believed to be caused by sudden water turn over and temperature change (I don't know if they actually figured it out for sure.) I agree that maintaining stable parameters in a tank is beneficial for the fish we keep. However, within that range the fish will survive and thrive. I do not heat any of my livebearer tanks. The temps range from around 72 in winter, to 66F in the summer. The fish do not suffer from this, and in fact live longer. Advantages to keeping the water cooler, are higher dissolved oxygen, lower bacteria count, which means less disease. When I say lower temp, I mean the lower end of the acceptable range for the species we keep. We tend to mix fish from different temp ranges in our tanks, and pick a temp that is a compromise. that is no problem for the most part as the fish adapt to a point, as their metabolism is controlled by the temp. Some fish will only to well at certain temps. Discus comes to mind for needing high temps, and coryadoras barabatus needs low temps below 70F to do well. The majority fo fish we keep will do well in water around 78 F, just as they will do well in water that is vastly different from their native waters. While I am in no way advocating purposely changing fish from water at one temp to the other, it seems to make no difference to them going to a higher temp. I have had heaters quit, and a tank drop in temp, and had them stick on and go higher. I never lost fish in either case. The temperature change is gradual. I quite often add water that is significantly warmer during a water change. The fact that the fish will eat a moment or two after shutting off the taps, tells me they weren't stressed out. Again, this whole thing about stress needs discussion.
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Old 01-02-2006, 08:57 PM   #12
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also... while they can survive the temperature the stress in a closed system can cause their immune systems to weaken and thus disease.
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Old 01-02-2006, 09:29 PM   #13
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I kept fish in Darwin where the summer tepmeratures were above 33C. Needless to say I didn't run heaters. I kept neons and corys (Bronze and Peppered) successfully and neons are often not recommended to be kept at these higher temperatures and they did just fine. The winter temperatures were lower but the water temp was always above 25 degrees. This was a seasonal fluctuation and not an instantaneous drop.
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Old 01-02-2006, 11:12 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD
and coryadoras barabatus needs low temps below 70F to do well.
Assuming you are referring to Scleromystax barbatus, I (and many, many other aquarists) have been keeping and quite successfully breeding them for 16 years in temps of 70º-76ºF, so I am not sure where you got that misinformation.

Sudden changes in temperature, up or down, can cause shock to the nervous system of fish (enough to kill some species)....now I am not talking about a change of 5-6 degrees over several minutes, but 8-10 degrees almost instantaneously...it is well documented and easily reproduced under laboratory conditions, should you wish to unecessarily stress some fish to do so.
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Old 01-02-2006, 11:27 PM   #15
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sooo... Toirtis, if he were to acclimate the fish over an hour or more with drip acclimation then it wouldn't cause as much stress correct? Even if it is a 10 degree difference??? Im sure fish i have purchased have had the water temps go down to about 70 before i got them home and then acclimated them to an 80 degree tank without problems.. but im always very very carful with it so as not to shock their systems.
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Old 01-03-2006, 01:32 AM   #16
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Yes...the longer, the better, but you should be able to get away with minimal stress after an hour.
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Old 01-03-2006, 03:39 AM   #17
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So what species would die from suddenly moving them fro 70 F water to 80F water. As far as the barbatus (mis)info goes (I had forgotten the new genus name), it came from the literature, and the only person I know who has been breeding and showing them successfully for number of years. He breeds them in a chilled room, at below 68F.
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Old 01-03-2006, 03:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD
So what species would die from suddenly moving them fro 70 F water to 80F water.
Amongst others, I have seen Paracheirodon ssp. die is such situations, as well as several other fishes that I really do not have the desire to type out.

Quote:
As far as the barbatus (mis)info goes (I had forgotten the new ggeus name), it came from the literature,
Plenty of literature out there...which in particular?

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and the only person I know who has been breeding and showing them successfully for number of years. He breeds them in a chilled room, at below 68F.
That is surprising...spawning barbatus must not be very common there.
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Old 01-03-2006, 09:57 AM   #19
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Spawning barbatus is uncommon here, and they are rarely seen in the store. I tried to buy some of the fry he showed at the CAOAC convention, and they were already presold and there was a waiting list for the next spawn. I have only seen them in the stores once in the last 10 years, and that was at least 10 years ago. Also very expensive. The book I have on breeding Coryadoras (which I can't find at the moment) and the Axlerod Atlas, are the literature in question. If it is well documented, I should have no trouble finding some data. It does differ from what I have read in the past and from what I have experienced, based on that info. I have often removed a fish from one container to a warmer one and never noticed any adverse reaction. It is interesting and I would like to know more.
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Old 01-03-2006, 05:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillD
Spawning barbatus is uncommon here, and they are rarely seen in the store. I tried to buy some of the fry he showed at the CAOAC convention, and they were already presold and there was a waiting list for the next spawn. I have only seen them in the stores once in the last 10 years, and that was at least 10 years ago. Also very expensive.
We see them at auctions pretty regularly here....at least 6 hobbyists in Calgary alone that spawn them fairly regularly, and another 4-5 in Edmonton....I would imagine that most of us are in the CAOAC breeders registry, although I am not sure that it is kept as up to date as it could be. When they are in shops here, $12-$18 each is typical, which certainly isn't cheap, but they usually go for about $6-$7 each in auctions.

Quote:
The book I have on breeding Coryadoras (which I can't find at the moment) and the Axlerod Atlas, are the literature in question.
Ah, you will want to look at Ian Fuller's bible and anything by Werner Seuss (although a lot of it is in German)....the two top Cory men on the planet.
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