Water test

[HannahJ]

I'm kinda late to the topic, but here's some advice I don't think has been said yet.

Do not use a chemical pH buffer! I can not stress that enough. Whoever sold you yours may have meant well, but it will end up doing more harm than good. There are natural pH stabilizers you can utilize if you absolutely need to (coral/limestone/bubblers in the tank to raie the pH, peat/CO2 to lower it, etc), but you are really best just letting your pH be. Your fish will stand it just fine.

On using both AmQuel and NovAqua--NovAqua is a water conditioner. You want to be using it, it will remove chlorine and chloramines from your water. And yes, you can use it instantly, I do on all of my fish tanks every water change. However, I would recommend you stop using AmQuel. If you notice, it purports to remove Ammonia, which should not be necessary at all in a cycled tank. In fact, by removing the ammonia from the tank when you use it, it is in a sense starving some of your nitrifying bacteria, which could be part of your problem. You can use just NovAqua without using AmQuel, and your tank will be better for it.

Also, one very important thing for you to consider: you said you were using a test kit that involves strips--throw it out. Strip testing is wildly innaccurate, which could be the source of a lot of these inconsistent test results, rather than actual changes in your pH. Go and buy a liquid test kit (the recommended brand on this forum is AP Freshwater Test Kit), it is well worth the money, and will be a thousand times more accurate.

Another thing, do not be afraid to do as many PWC's as is possible. PWC's are never bad, and can be done daily with no ill effect, so long as you condition the water and match the tank temperature. You should be doing, at the least, a PWC once every other week, with once a week strongly recommended, especially in a slightly overloaded tank like yours. The exact amount of water you need to change isn't set in stone. I usually do about a 1/3 PWC every week, but you might need a 50% PWC.

The best way to find out how much you should change is to look at your nitrAtes. You want your nitrAtes to be under 40ppm at a bare minimum, and anyone on this forum will tell you that under 20ppm is really best. If your tank tests at 50ppm on nitrAtes, then a 50% PWC will put them at 25ppm. While you probably shouldn't do more than a 50% PWC at a time unless you are really in danger, I would recommend doing a 50% PWC daily until your nitrAtes are under 20ppm, and then just doing once a week PWC's (though be sure to monitor your water parameters). To make these water changes easier, you might look into getting a Python vacuum. They hook into your sink so the bucket/jugs of water thing isn't needed anymore.

Also, if your water is cloudy after a PWC, this is likely because stuff on the bottom of your tank is getting stirred up into the water. Try giving your tank a really good vacuum/cleaning and see if that helps.

Another thing I noticed is that you are using a Millenium 1000 filter. I believe those are only marked for use up to 15 gallons. It moves about 90 gph and you really need at minimun 5 gph per gallon in your tank (with over-filtering recommended in tanks like yours where it might be a little overcrowded). In a 20 gallon, you'll want a filter with at least 100 gph turnover, and maybe a bit more. You might look into getting a new filter. If you do, though, be sure to run it on your tank with the old filter for a while to build up bacteria on it, before removing the old filter. And you can skip filters that rely mainly on charcoal or carbon--that sort of mechanical filtration is good for very little. You want a filter that rather offers mechanical filtration and has a lot of good surfaces for bacteria to grow on.

Sorry for the long post. I hope all of this has helped some. Good luck!

 

[Dora]

Do not use a chemical pH buffer! I can not stress that enough. Whoever sold you yours may have meant well, but it will end up doing more harm than good. There are natural pH stabilizers you can utilize if you absolutely need to (coral/limestone/bubblers in the tank to raie the pH, peat/CO2 to lower it, etc), but you are really best just letting your pH be. Your fish will stand it just fine. !

So far it's 3 for 3. The nays have it! Glad I checked here first.

As for the low pH, I was told that glowlight tetras and coryadoris catfish prefer more acidic waters because they are from an Amazon environment. Well, they certainly have that now! However, I would still like to get the pH up more than 6.2. Will coral or limestone bubblers raise the pH quickly or over time? Do they also help increase alkalinity?

On using both AmQuel and NovAqua--NovAqua is a water conditioner. You want to be using it, it will remove chlorine and chloramines from your water. And yes, you can use it instantly, I do on all of my fish tanks every water change. However, I would recommend you stop using AmQuel. If you notice, it purports to remove Ammonia, which should not be necessary at all in a cycled tank. In fact, by removing the ammonia from the tank when you use it, it is in a sense starving some of your nitrifying bacteria, which could be part of your problem. You can use just NovAqua without using AmQuel, and your tank will be better for it.!

I want to make sure I understand. A cycled tank doesn't have any ammonia except when ammonia is introduced during a PWC? The ammonia introduced during a PWC should not be removed? I hope I have that right.

Also, one very important thing for you to consider: you said you were using a test kit that involves strips--throw it out. Strip testing is wildly innaccurate, which could be the source of a lot of these inconsistent test results, rather than actual changes in your pH. Go and buy a liquid test kit (the recommended brand on this forum is AP Freshwater Test Kit), it is well worth the money, and will be a thousand times more accurate.

Appreciate the info.

Another thing, do not be afraid to do as many PWC's as is possible. PWC's are never bad, and can be done daily with no ill effect, so long as you condition the water and match the tank temperature. You should be doing, at the least, a PWC once every other week, with once a week strongly recommended, especially in a slightly overloaded tank like yours. The exact amount of water you need to change isn't set in stone. I usually do about a 1/3 PWC every week, but you might need a 50% PWC.

Is there a recommended way to match the tank's temperature when I'm storing my water in gallon jugs?

The best way to find out how much you should change is to look at your nitrAtes. You want your nitrAtes to be under 40ppm at a bare minimum, and anyone on this forum will tell you that under 20ppm is really best. If your tank tests at 50ppm on nitrAtes, then a 50% PWC will put them at 25ppm. While you probably shouldn't do more than a 50% PWC at a time unless you are really in danger, I would recommend doing a 50% PWC daily until your nitrAtes are under 20ppm, and then just doing once a week PWC's (though be sure to monitor your water parameters). To make these water changes easier, you might look into getting a Python vacuum. They hook into your sink so the bucket/jugs of water thing isn't needed anymore.

Also, if your water is cloudy after a PWC, this is likely because stuff on the bottom of your tank is getting stirred up into the water. Try giving your tank a really good vacuum/cleaning and see if that helps.

Don't frequent PWCs removed a lot of the good bacteria? Because I've been doing PWCs only once a month, I'm afraid that a sudden change in pattern might cause the tank to swing way out of balance. Am I just being paranoid? 8O Also, Is it unusual for cloudiness from stirred up water to remain 4 days after a PWC? I'm wondering if it could be caused by somehting else.

Another thing I noticed is that you are using a Millenium 1000 filter. I believe those are only marked for use up to 15 gallons. It moves about 90 gph and you really need at minimun 5 gph per gallon in your tank (with over-filtering recommended in tanks like yours where it might be a little overcrowded). In a 20 gallon, you'll want a filter with at least 100 gph turnover, and maybe a bit more. You might look into getting a new filter. If you do, though, be sure to run it on your tank with the old filter for a while to build up bacteria on it, before removing the old filter. And you can skip filters that rely mainly on charcoal or carbon--that sort of mechanical filtration is good for very little. You want a filter that rather offers mechanical filtration and has a lot of good surfaces for bacteria to grow on.

Do you have a filter you could recommend? Hopefully something that doesn't require too much time and maintenance.

Sorry for the long post. I hope all of this has helped some. Good luck!

No need to apologize. I found your advice very helpful!

 

[rich311k]

Crushed Coral will raise your PH slowly and will keep it stable.

No ammonia will be introduced during a water change unless for some reason you have ammonia in your tap. No reason to store you water just add dechlor to the tap water and pour it in. I use Prime works instantly. There is no bacteria in the water it attches to filter media decorations gravel etc. I change 50% once a week with no harm to my fish. They seem to like it.

As for a filter I would get an Aqua Clear 50. I have one and it does a nice job.

 

[Purrbox]

Just to be clear. Product like AmQuel and Prime detoxify Ammonia, they don't remove it or make it unavailable to the biofilter. What they do is convert it to Ammonium (I believe that's the right name) which isn't as harmful to your fish, allowing the biofilter time to convert it to Nitate without the risk of harming your fish. For lucky people like me who have Ammonia in their tap water, using products like these is a must.

That being said, there is no reason to be using more than one tap water conditioner. Pick the one that you prefer that does everything you need for your particular tap water situation and stick to that.

 

[HannahJ]

I want to make sure I understand. A cycled tank doesn't have any ammonia except when ammonia is introduced during a PWC? The ammonia introduced during a PWC should not be removed? I hope I have that right.

No, ammonia is produced by your fish in their waste. It shouldn't be present in your tap water (though you may want to test just your tao waer to see if this is the case). However, an established fish tank has bacteria that convert it very quickly to nitrIte, which is converted by another kind of bacteria to nitrAte. So long as your fish output the same amount of ammonia (no dead/new fish or decaying matter to make an ammonia spike), your bacteria shoud be continually converting it to nitrIte and then to nitrAte, follow? The nitrAte doesn't get converted into anything, though, so it builds up over time, eventually reaching toxic levels (usually over 40ppm), thus the need for PWC's to remove it.

Also, Purrbox corrected me on my assumption of how the ammonia-locking chemicals work. I was basing my info off a rather difficult internet article, so I concede to his/her expertise on this. Sorry for giving you the bad info. Still, unless you have, like Purrbox, ammonia in your tap water, I would recommend sticking to a plain conditioner. All those extra chemicals add a lot of unknown factors to your tank, and it could be contributing to come of your problems.

Is there a recommended way to match the tank's temperature when I'm storing my water in gallon jugs?

I would recommend just mixing hot/cold water out of your tap to approximately the right temperature (you can measure it with a thermometer or just with your finger--studies have shown humans are sensitive to temperature differences within a single degree) and then putting it in your tank along with the appropriate amount of dechlorinater. There is really no need to age your water in the gallon jugs if you are using NovAqua, and trust me when I say it works instantly very well. I have been using it for several years now without consequence.

Don't frequent PWCs removed a lot of the good bacteria? Because I've been doing PWCs only once a month, I'm afraid that a sudden change in pattern might cause the tank to swing way out of balance. Am I just being paranoid? Shocked Also, Is it unusual for cloudiness from stirred up water to remain 4 days after a PWC? I'm wondering if it could be caused by somehting else.

PWC's remove very little bacteria, because the nitrifying bacteria in our tanks are not free-floating in the water. Most of them live in your gravel, on your decorations, and in your filter, so replacing water won't disturb them. (Replacing filter cartridges/media does, though, so be careful when that is required.) If you are still concerned about sudden changes, you have the option of increasing your PWC's over time, so long as your current parameters aren't in the danger zone.

As far as the cloudiness, I am really at a loss. If it remains that long after a PWC, I suppose it could be a temporary algae/bacteria bloom caused either by the improved conditions in the water after a PWC, or by the replenishment of trace minerals a PWC provides. One thing to check, though-you're sure the cloudiness is in the water and not just discoloration on the glass of the tank, right? If you need to be sure, get a clear glass full of water from your tank and see how it looks then.

Also, if you can tell what color your cloudiness is, you could start a new post along the lines of "What is causing [insert color] cloudiness?" and it might get some more relevant replies from people who know more than I on this.

Do you have a filter you could recommend? Hopefully something that doesn't require too much time and maintenance.

For a 20 gallon, the best thing would probably just be to get another HOB filter like the one you have, just with a higher water turnover rate. I know a lot of people on this board recommend AquaClear filters, but go to your LFS and look around and find out what you think looks nice. Just remember to go by what the gph turnover is, rather than how many gallons the filter is marked for. Some suppliers underestimate the gph needed for some filters.

I hope that clarified some things. If you need anything else explained better, please feel free to ask away.

 

[Dora]

Crushed Coral will raise your PH slowly and will keep it stable.

Can I get that at a tropical fish store? How do you put it in your tank? Also, thanks for the information about Ammonia and your filter suggestion.

Just to be clear. Product like AmQuel and Prime detoxify Ammonia, they don't remove it or make it unavailable to the biofilter. What they do is convert it to Ammonium (I believe that's the right name) which isn't as harmful to your fish, allowing the biofilter time to convert it to Nitate without the risk of harming your fish. For lucky people like me who have Ammonia in their tap water, using products like these is a must.

I appreciate the clarification. I still need to test my tap water for Ammonia so I can determine which product to use in the future. If the tap water contains 0 nitrites, does that mean there's no Ammonia? I just want to be sure. Previously I'd been adding AmQuel and NovAqua liberally because the bottles claim you can't put too much in, but is it possible to OD the water on those chemicals?

No, ammonia is produced by your fish in their waste. It shouldn't be present in your tap water (though you may want to test just your tao waer to see if this is the case). However, an established fish tank has bacteria that convert it very quickly to nitrIte, which is converted by another kind of bacteria to nitrAte. So long as your fish output the same amount of ammonia (no dead/new fish or decaying matter to make an ammonia spike), your bacteria shoud be continually converting it to nitrIte and then to nitrAte, follow? The nitrAte doesn't get converted into anything, though, so it builds up over time, eventually reaching toxic levels (usually over 40ppm), thus the need for PWC's to remove it.

I didn't know that and gee I feel silly!

Also, Purrbox corrected me on my assumption of how the ammonia-locking chemicals work. I was basing my info off a rather difficult internet article, so I concede to his/her expertise on this. Sorry for giving you the bad info. Still, unless you have, like Purrbox, ammonia in your tap water, I would recommend sticking to a plain conditioner. All those extra chemicals add a lot of unknown factors to your tank, and it could be contributing to come of your problems.

Now I'm wondering if the extra chemicals had something to do with the cloudiness. :? The cloudiness is a little better today but the water readings haven't changed in several days. I noticed a sick Glowlight Tetra this morning and put it in my 5 gallon "hospital tank" that I have set up for these kinds of situations. The smaller tank has much better water quality with a 6.8 pH and 40 KH. If that tank wasn't so small, I'd be tempted to move the other fish there until the 20 gallon tank has stabilized.

I would recommend just mixing hot/cold water out of your tap to approximately the right temperature (you can measure it with a thermometer or just with your finger--studies have shown humans are sensitive to temperature differences within a single degree) and then putting it in your tank along with the appropriate amount of dechlorinater. There is really no need to age your water in the gallon jugs if you are using NovAqua, and trust me when I say it works instantly very well. I have been using it for several years now without consequence.

That's good to know.

PWC's remove very little bacteria, because the nitrifying bacteria in our tanks are not free-floating in the water. Most of them live in your gravel, on your decorations, and in your filter, so replacing water won't disturb them. (Replacing filter cartridges/media does, though, so be careful when that is required.) If you are still concerned about sudden changes, you have the option of increasing your PWC's over time, so long as your current parameters aren't in the danger zone.

I think my blunder was swishing the filter's grid in the bucket during a 5 gallon water change and changing the filter's cartridge three days later. It seems like my problems started happening after that. However, my nitrate reading was 80 before that PWC so something may have been about to happen anyway. I just don't know.

As far as the cloudiness, I am really at a loss. If it remains that long after a PWC, I suppose it could be a temporary algae/bacteria bloom caused either by the improved conditions in the water after a PWC, or by the replenishment of trace minerals a PWC provides. One thing to check, though-you're sure the cloudiness is in the water and not just discoloration on the glass of the tank, right? If you need to be sure, get a clear glass full of water from your tank and see how it looks then.

Also, if you can tell what color your cloudiness is, you could start a new post along the lines of "What is causing [insert color] cloudiness?" and it might get some more relevant replies from people who know more than I on this.

Is it possible to have a bacteria bloom when I test no Ammonia in the water? I may start another topic if the cloudiness doesn't clear up by tomorrow.

For a 20 gallon, the best thing would probably just be to get another HOB filter like the one you have, just with a higher water turnover rate. I know a lot of people on this board recommend AquaClear filters, but go to your LFS and look around and find out what you think looks nice. Just remember to go by what the gph turnover is, rather than how many gallons the filter is marked for. Some suppliers underestimate the gph needed for some filters.

Thanks. This forum is great! Such a wealth of information!

 

[rich311k]

Your LFS should sell CC, if they sell marine fish. They be willing to give you a hand full for free. Put a little bit, small handful, in a bag in your filter and you are good to go. Should last you 3-4 months.

 

[Dora]

Thanks, rich311k! I'm heading to my LFS after work!

 

[HannahJ]

Previously I'd been adding AmQuel and NovAqua liberally because the bottles claim you can't put too much in, but is it possible to OD the water on those chemicals?

I don't believe it's easily possible. I know for sure that NovAqua can be liberally dosed without any problems, but it seems like back when I used AmQuel that it had a warning on the back about using more than the recommended dose in 24 hours. I know that AmQuel shouldn't be used if you're using dye medication (malachite green, etc.) because it will interfere. Maybe you can look at your bottle and see?

Can I get that at a tropical fish store? How do you put it in your tank?

Besides putting crushed coral in your filter, you can also get crushed coral as a substrate, or you can get pieces of coral to use as decorations. You can also use limestone in the same manner, though coral would probably be easier to find at your LFS and use.

Hope that helped!

PS- Here's some articles on AmQuel that might elucidate things:

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Amquel.html

http://www.novalek.com/kpd58.htm

http://www.novalek.com/kpd51.htm

 

[Dora]

Thanks, HannahJ!

The articles explained a lot abour AmQuel that I didn't know. The first article pointed out something that concerns me:

Your tank is not truly cycled if you need Amquel to maintain the zero ammonia readings. Stop using it and you will have an ammonia spike. The Amquel has not killed or harmed your cycle, nor has it stunted it. It merely has obscured the fact that your cycle is not sufficient to handle all that is in your tank.

Does that mean I will be in for more problems when I stop using AmQuel? 8O

I just did a test on my tap water: 0 nitrItes, 10 nitrAtes. Will NovAqua be okay by itself for those readings? :?

The instructions on the AmQuel bottle states "Dosage can be increased or repeated as needed without toxic effects to plants, animals, or reefs (live rock)."

Well I'm off the my LFS for coral or limestone...