We Lost Our Black Moor...What Went Wrong?

[ArtesiaWells]

Well, unfortunately everyone, we recently lost our beloved Black (Gold) Moor "Ebony" to some kind of -- yet again -- bacterial infection, or so it seemed. Though none of the other three remaining goldfish appear to be showing any kinds of likewise signs, what began as "pimples" on her body that went away as quickly as they appeared evolved into "humps" and "lumps" on her backside to the point she eventually stopped eating; I found her face down in a plant and that was the end...

This fish meant the world to us -- for those of you who didn't know the situation, Ebony came into the last tank we had as a baby Moor, still black with the velvety scales...when the last bacterial infection in the previous 60 gallon broke out, killing a Red Cap Oranda and Chocolate Oranda, we were able to save Ebony by scooping her out and putting her in an emergency holding "tank" (which was actually a plastic Marina "goldfish starter kit") where she appeared to "shake off" the disgusting infected water from the 60. Once I cleaned out the larger tank and disinfected it for the infection, she went back in when the water was ready (Stability treatments, etc.) and was doing fine until that tank developed a crack and spilled all over the carpet, flooding the downstairs of our home as well. So Ebony -- along with another Red Cap Oranda -- was again transferred to an emergency 10 gallon starter kit we bought where she lived for nearly a year with three other goldies (kept alive by doing DAILY 50% water changes).

We finally got enough money together to purchase a new Marineland 60 gallon "Heartland Ensemble," and Ebony appeared happy to finally be back in a new, big home. She was apparently growing and doing well, with her black scales now a rich golden hue, but all of a sudden we noticed these "lumps" coming out on her body seemingly out of nowhere -- I was ABSOLUTELY RELIGIOUS with water maintenance, doing the weekly 50% and mid-week 30-gallon exchange for added cleanliness, and according to regular API test results, we were fully cycled. I just don't know where we went wrong; I don't know whether it was the change of diet to the Omega One Goldfish Flakes, the exhausted carbon in my Aqueon filter, something in our tap water, pockets of toxic elements in the substrate (though I gravel vacuumed) or maybe the stress of all these moves...but this manifested MUCH later as this new tank has been up and running for a few months now, so I don't see how that can be...

Here were the test results the DAY I took Ebony from the tank, deceased:

Ammonia: 0ppm
NitrIte: 0ppm
NitrAte: Around, approximately, 20ppm; DEFINITELY not in the "unsafe" dark orange/red zone...more in the light orange/"safe" area...

Aren't these numbers considered "safe" and good?

Does anyone have any clue, insight or thoughts regarding what could have killed this fish? I have read that these "cysts" and "tumors" can pop out at any time on fancy goldfish, usually killing them, but does anyone suspect this is what happened?

Now, if my Aqueon QuietFlow 55 and its carbon cartridge maintenance is the suspected culprit, what should I do about this? I have been rinsing and dunking the cartridges originally put in the filter when I set this new 60 gallon up during water changes (when they get a bit nasty looking) to remove loose debris while keeping the bacteria colonies, not touching the blue bio grids that are supposed to house them, but recently I did a "staggered" replacement -- that is, I swapped out one of the cartridges for a new one while leaving the other one in there (this HOB takes two carts), then waited a few weeks and just swapped the other one out for replacement...I am worried now that something in the exhausted carbon may have lead to her death, based on the discussions we were having in here about this some time back...does anyone think this is even possible? If this is the case, why haven't the other fish gotten sick?

What should I be doing with these Aqueon cartridges? Should I continue to rinse them off in removed tank water after awhile regardless of the exhausted carbon that may be in them and possibly harboring pathogens? Or, should I keep "staggering" the replacements as I just did, changing one at a time? I know this kind of gets expensive and most hobbyists like you guys and gals don't recommend keeping the filter manufacturers in business like that, but honestly I can afford, right now at least, to buy the occasional six-pack of cartridges from Petsmart that this filter takes, if not on a CONSTANT basis...

Any assistance and/or insight would be greatly appreciated here...thank you in advance!

 

[FishBoy185]

Im so sorry about your loss. I am always down when ever I hear about something like this. My goldfish mean the world to me.

 

[Mebbid]

I'm very sorry that your fish died I always absolutely HATE it when any of my little scaly friends die Sadly, Its hard to tell what killed your gold fish. The nitrate levels are perfectly within acceptable parameters and the tank was obviously cycled. It could be a lingering infection or parasite that just hadn't fully taken hold and waited for an opportune moment to strike. My 55g seems to have a problem with a sickness that just wont go away no matter what I do to it. I think I will end up quarantining EVERYTHING and treating everything that I can which is not going to be an easy task.

As for changing your filter. Never do it unless it is completely falling apart and decomposing. It will do nothing but cause you to go through another cycle.

I don't really wish to get into another argument about exhausted carbon causing sickness in fish but here is my standpoint on it: There is a study that was performed on exhausted carbon with an increase in a certain kind of bacteria whose name I can not remember off the top of my head. This study specifically studied the increase of bacteria on exhausted carbon in tap water filters meant for human consumption. My personal feelings on this is that the bacteria will grow on any available surface. While the exhausted carbon is a place where it can grow, it will not cause any increased growth of that particular bacteria simply because the carbon is there. Until I see a study that specifically tests for bacteria levels on an aquarium the quoting of this study is in my opinion null and void. That being said, it is up to you to decide on the effect it will have.


Just to check, but have you been dunking the old filters in old tank water or tap water?

Also, do you have large pH swings during your day / night cycle?

What is the difference in the pH between your tank water and water fresh out of the tap?

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Im so sorry about your loss. I am always down when ever I hear about something like this. My goldfish mean the world to me.

Thank you for your kind sentiments, Fish Boy...

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one going through this...

 

[ArtesiaWells]

I'm very sorry that your fish died

Thank you, as well, Mebbid, for your sentiments... We are indeed heartbroken as we have watched this fish grow from nearly an all-black fry to a stunning, rather fat Black/Gold Moor who was seemingly happy...

Sadly, Its hard to tell what killed your gold fish. The nitrate levels are perfectly within acceptable parameters and the tank was obviously cycled.

THAT'S what has us scratching our heads...I just don't get it...on top of that, we're running pretty heavy filtration so why did this happen?

It could be a lingering infection or parasite that just hadn't fully taken hold and waited for an opportune moment to strike. My 55g seems to have a problem with a sickness that just wont go away no matter what I do to it. I think I will end up quarantining EVERYTHING and treating everything that I can which is not going to be an easy task.

I'm thinking that was the only thing it could have been; perhaps lingering infection from the last outbreak she was part of that wiped out the previous 60 gallon (before it cracked) and just remained dormant within her...

I am sorry to hear about your 55 -- have you ever personally lost many fish? Is this kind of common to happen even with good filtration?

As for changing your filter. Never do it unless it is completely falling apart and decomposing. It will do nothing but cause you to go through another cycle.

Indeed, I am aware of this factor and I NEVER replace the elements in my AquaClear 110 (the sponge/foam and BioMax)...however, I am referring to the "carbon cartridges" that my Aqueon HOB takes and which are supposed to "exhaust" after awhile, possibly "leaching" toxins back into the tank (a hotly debated topic)...I am uncertain if I should continue REUSING these after the carbon is supposedly exhausted by dunking and rinsing them off in removed tank water...or, if it's okay to replace them after awhile with new ones because Aqueon specifically states that the blue "bio grid" holsters the cartridges slip into are supposed to be the area that the bacteria grow on...so it is okay to replace the actual floss cartridges...

Do you agree?

I don't really wish to get into another argument about exhausted carbon causing sickness in fish but here is my standpoint on it: There is a study that was performed on exhausted carbon with an increase in a certain kind of bacteria whose name I can not remember off the top of my head. This study specifically studied the increase of bacteria on exhausted carbon in tap water filters meant for human consumption. My personal feelings on this is that the bacteria will grow on any available surface. While the exhausted carbon is a place where it can grow, it will not cause any increased growth of that particular bacteria simply because the carbon is there. Until I see a study that specifically tests for bacteria levels on an aquarium the quoting of this study is in my opinion null and void. That being said, it is up to you to decide on the effect it will have.

I suppose this kind of answered some of my question above; I appreciate your thoughts and opinion, but I wish I could get a more definitive answer from someone on this beyond "it is up to you to decide..." Is it your belief, essentially, that exhausted carbon will simply be an area for BB to grow and will NOT leach any toxins or pathogens into the water column? If so, can these cartridges I use simply be rinsed over and over again in removed tank water and CONSTANTLY re-used (until falling apart)?

Just to check, but have you been dunking the old filters in old tank water or tap water?

ALWAYS removed tank water during a water change...

Also, do you have large pH swings during your day / night cycle?

Good question...I don't know...

What is the difference in the pH between your tank water and water fresh out of the tap?

Another good question; I never tested...

 

[Mebbid]

Thank you, as well, Mebbid, for your sentiments... We are indeed heartbroken as we have watched this fish grow from nearly an all-black fry to a stunning, rather fat Black/Gold Moor who was seemingly happy...



THAT'S what has us scratching our heads...I just don't get it...on top of that, we're running pretty heavy filtration so why did this happen?



I'm thinking that was the only thing it could have been; perhaps lingering infection from the last outbreak she was part of that wiped out the previous 60 gallon (before it cracked) and just remained dormant within her...

I am sorry to hear about your 55 -- have you ever personally lost many fish? Is this kind of common to happen even with good filtration?



Indeed, I am aware of this factor and I NEVER replace the elements in my AquaClear 110 (the sponge/foam and BioMax)...however, I am referring to the "carbon cartridges" that my Aqueon HOB takes and which are supposed to "exhaust" after awhile, possibly "leaching" toxins back into the tank (a hotly debated topic)...I am uncertain if I should continue REUSING these after the carbon is supposedly exhausted by dunking and rinsing them off in removed tank water...or, if it's okay to replace them after awhile with new ones because Aqueon specifically states that the blue "bio grid" holsters the cartridges slip into are supposed to be the area that the bacteria grow on...so it is okay to replace the actual floss cartridges...

Do you agree?



I suppose this kind of answered some of my question above; I appreciate your thoughts and opinion, but I wish I could get a more definitive answer from someone on this beyond "it is up to you to decide..." Is it your belief, essentially, that exhausted carbon will simply be an area for BB to grow and will NOT leach any toxins or pathogens into the water column? If so, can these cartridges I use simply be rinsed over and over again in removed tank water and CONSTANTLY re-used (until falling apart)?



ALWAYS removed tank water during a water change...



Good question...I don't know...



Another good question; I never tested...

I'm not personally familiar with that brand of filter so I am not really sure how it's constructed. But if it is solely a carbon insert, I would skip the use of it entirely. Carbon isn't needed at all for a take and all it does under normal circumstances is pull out some of the discoloration in the water and some smells. Driftwood tannins are a prime example of this. In fact, I replaced my carbon for purigen which has worked amazingly at keeping my water clear of tannins and I've never actually seen my tank any clearer.

As for my beliefs on carbon, I have yet to see anyone with authority state that carbon will leach anything into the water other than phosphate which could contribute to algae growth.

Also, I believe that any type of bacteria will grow on it, just like it will on the substrate, tank glass, filter padding, and decorations. Bacteria will grow where there is a good food source and carbon is just as high as gravel on the list of edible material.

There was a nasty outbreak of columnaris in my house recently that killed 14 bettas, 11 guppies, and 2 killifish. it just moved too fast to properly treat the fish. I believe that strain is the one lingering in my 55g which I am trying to treat my fish for now. As it stands, it looks like 2 of my fancy swordtails might not make it but I'm really hoping that they will pull through. Thankfully my 55g is planted heavily enough that the nitrates never really raise above 10 and I dropped my temperature in the hopes that it will grow slower.

Don't feel bad, I've never tested my tap water for pH either. But mine is buffered well enough that it doesn't change very much.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

I'm not personally familiar with that brand of filter so I am not really sure how it's constructed. But if it is solely a carbon insert, I would skip the use of it entirely. Carbon isn't needed at all for a take and all it does under normal circumstances is pull out some of the discoloration in the water and some smells. Driftwood tannins are a prime example of this. In fact, I replaced my carbon for purigen which has worked amazingly at keeping my water clear of tannins and I've never actually seen my tank any clearer.

Indeed, I love Purigen as a media insert but can't seem to get up enough laying-around scratch to buy the pouches online right now...

Here's what my Aqueon cartridge inserts look like:

MY particular filter takes TWO of these, side by side, which look like two of these once placed in their "bio holsters":

As for my beliefs on carbon, I have yet to see anyone with authority state that carbon will leach anything into the water other than phosphate which could contribute to algae growth.

Now that may be why I got a HORRENDOUS diatom outbreak in my last 60 gallon setup (using the same filters) as I was told diatoms come from phosphates...

Are you saying that the exhausted carbon is pretty much restricted to causing phosphates and I don't have to worry about any toxins, bacteria, infections or pathogens being spilled back in by it?

Also, I believe that any type of bacteria will grow on it, just like it will on the substrate, tank glass, filter padding, and decorations. Bacteria will grow where there is a good food source and carbon is just as high as gravel on the list of edible material.

So, essentially, the carbon will exhaust and the pads will simply be there for MECHANICAL filtration?

There was a nasty outbreak of columnaris in my house recently that killed 14 bettas, 11 guppies, and 2 killifish. it just moved too fast to properly treat the fish. I believe that strain is the one lingering in my 55g which I am trying to treat my fish for now. As it stands, it looks like 2 of my fancy swordtails might not make it but I'm really hoping that they will pull through. Thankfully my 55g is planted heavily enough that the nitrates never really raise above 10 and I dropped my temperature in the hopes that it will grow slower.

Jeeeeez...I'm sorry....and this is WITH proper filtration?

Does good, properly-running filtration guarantee disease-free conditions...or are these elements completely unrelated?

Don't feel bad, I've never tested my tap water for pH either. But mine is buffered well enough that it doesn't change very much.

But if I am getting pH swings between day and night, could this have caused the infection in the Moor?

 

[Mebbid]

Indeed, I love Purigen as a media insert but can't seem to get up enough laying-around scratch to buy the pouches online right now...

Here's what my Aqueon cartridge inserts look like:

MY particular filter takes TWO of these, side by side, which look like two of these once placed in their "bio holsters":

Now that may be why I got a HORRENDOUS diatom outbreak in my last 60 gallon setup (using the same filters) as I was told diatoms come from phosphates...

Are you saying that the exhausted carbon is pretty much restricted to causing phosphates and I don't have to worry about any toxins, bacteria, infections or pathogens being spilled back in by it?

So, essentially, the carbon will exhaust and the pads will simply be there for MECHANICAL filtration?

Jeeeeez...I'm sorry....and this is WITH proper filtration?

Does good, properly-running filtration guarantee disease-free conditions...or are these elements completely unrelated?

But if I am getting pH swings between day and night, could this have caused the infection in the Moor?

Algae outbreaks are generally caused by too much light and nutrients in the water for the algae to utilize. While the exhausted carbon might have contributed to it, I wouldn't say that is the main cause of it. Any bacteria that will be found on the carbon will be found on other surfaces in your tank as well. I would consider exhausted carbon to be a minimal source of mechanical filtration.

Yes, my fish all had a proper filter. I wouldn't say that filters and sickness are unrelated. With better water parameters comes less stress to your fish and therefore a better immune system.

Without knowing the numbers, if there were sizable ph swings it could have stressed out your fish causing it to be more susceptible to getting sick.

 

[ArtesiaWells]

Algae outbreaks are generally caused by too much light and nutrients in the water for the algae to utilize. While the exhausted carbon might have contributed to it, I wouldn't say that is the main cause of it. Any bacteria that will be found on the carbon will be found on other surfaces in your tank as well. I would consider exhausted carbon to be a minimal source of mechanical filtration.

No, I'm saying that the CARBON PADS could then become the source of mechanical filtration once the CARBON is EXHAUSTED...

Yes, my fish all had a proper filter. I wouldn't say that filters and sickness are unrelated. With better water parameters comes less stress to your fish and therefore a better immune system.

Well, this isn't making me feel any better about the situation; I have two large filters, always maintained and running correctly, filtering a CYCLED tank and I STILL lost the fish...what is the point of having good filtration, then, if you're gonna lose fish?

Without knowing the numbers, if there were sizable ph swings it could have stressed out your fish causing it to be more susceptible to getting sick.

I don't know anymore; I am beginning to lean towards the theory that she picked up the bacterial infection from the last outbreak she was in inside the previous 60 gallon and it simply took time to come to fruition within her body, probably because of the good water conditions we were keeping (so it probably delayed the sickness)...

I just WISH I knew what it was because the other three goldies aren't showing any signs of anything (as of now)...

 

[Mebbid]

No, I'm saying that the CARBON PADS could then become the source of mechanical filtration once the CARBON is EXHAUSTED...

I am not sure how porous the carbon pads are but I believe they would be more effective at biological filtration than mechanical.

Well, this isn't making me feel any better about the situation; I have two large filters, always maintained and running correctly, filtering a CYCLED tank and I STILL lost the fish...what is the point of having good filtration, then, if you're gonna lose fish?

It wont stop bacterial, parasitic, or fungal infections but it will however stop fish from dying from ammonia or nitrite poisoning as well as adding flow, oxygen, and clarity to the water.

I don't know anymore; I am beginning to lean towards the theory that she picked up the bacterial infection from the last outbreak she was in inside the previous 60 gallon and it simply took time to come to fruition within her body, probably because of the good water conditions we were keeping (so it probably delayed the sickness)...

I just WISH I knew what it was because the other three goldies aren't showing any signs of anything (as of now)...

That is the most likely explanation of what happened imho. It's too bad that fish can't talk. It would make our life MUCH easier... Although I wouldn't really want to know what my school of rasboras is thinking 24/7

 

[ArtesiaWells]

I am not sure how porous the carbon pads are but I believe they would be more effective at biological filtration than mechanical.

I honestly don't see any other function for the pads themselves than for mechanical; I mean, the company itself suggests the "bio grids" that are plastic and blue which the pads slip into are supposed to be for BIO filtration...

It wont stop bacterial, parasitic, or fungal infections but it will however stop fish from dying from ammonia or nitrite poisoning as well as adding flow, oxygen, and clarity to the water.

I understand the clarity and oxygenation aspects, of course, but I'm just concerned that with good, solid filtration I still lost this fish...

That is the most likely explanation of what happened imho. It's too bad that fish can't talk. It would make our life MUCH easier... Although I wouldn't really want to know what my school of rasboras is thinking 24/7

Indeed; if this was the case, though, is it possible for an infection to simmer and incubate that long?