What does brackish mean

[Venus]

I'm a goldfish keeper, and have a goldfish website. I'm here because several members keep plecos with their goldfish. I've always heard this is a no no.

Could someone tell me what brackish means?
Could someone tell me what temps plecos should be kept at?
Does anyone know if plecos can actually be kept with goldfish?

I hope this post is in the right spot.

Thanks for any help, Venus

 

[atomiclord]

Does anyone know if plecos can actually be kept with goldfish?

Goldfish are coldwater fish, wheras plecos are tropicals. A pleco probably wouldn't appreciate being that cold, or having to compete with the goldies for wafers. If they're big enough they may even attack the little pleco...

 

[thatmagicguy]

Plecos are tropical fish as has been pointed out. Goldfish are often referred to as coldwater fish but in many intances, especially in the south here in the USA, goldfish are kept in temperatures that are considered tropical, above 75 degrees or so. So there is some crossover in regard to temperature compatibility. Obviously in most instances plecos would not survive the conditions that people overwinter their goldfish outdoors in. By that I mean where freezing temperatures prevail during the winter.

All of that being said, I think that alot of people buy plecos for the wrong reasons. Especially people that want to get them for their ponds. The usual inquiry at my store was, "I need to buy an algae eater for my goldfish/koi pond". And they would want a pleco. Well usually after interogating them it would come to light that they were dealing with suspended algae(pea soup), in their water and would think that an algae eater would clear that up. Obviously a false assumption.

Plecos require a good diet, and growing over a foot long in the case of most common plecos sold in retail stores they are not suitable for most indoor tanks. Most starve to death long before they reach their potential and most end up contributing more waste to an already overcrowded tank and certainly don't fix algae problems.

If you are encountering people on your site that want plecos to fix algae they should be guided to instead, a way to fix the problems that are causing the algae, notably light and waste(nutrients).

Regarding you inquiry as to what constitutes brackish, brackish water is easily described as having a salinity between fresh and marine levels. Most salt water fish are able to survive in water with a specific gravity over 1.020. So below this could in fact be described as brackish, and water that has enough salinity in it to be uncomfortable for most freshwater fish would possibly be called brackish. So there is a wide variance in what could be termed brackish.

One of my beefs with people insisting on having "brackish" tanks is that they couldn't tell you what the specific gravity of their tanks are. They buy puffer, scats, and various other supposed "brackish" fish and dump some salt in and call it brackish. Not everyone operates this way, buy a majority of people that I have met personally do. Animals that live in brackish communities often move from one salinity to another. Most of the puffers available in our hobby are not captured in brackish environments. They are caught in pure fresh water. They only move to marine environments to spawn. And the subsequent larvae/fry move back to fresh water to mature. But because most do not suffer from salt exposure they are thrown into arbitrarily decided specific gravities with no real knowledge of what is going on. And most die prematurely in hobbyists' tanks.

Anyway, hope that answers some of your inquiry.

Bill

 

[Venus]

Very much so. In the past I've recommended not to keep plecos with goldfish, and I'll continue doing so in the future. Although I might consider myself an expert with goldfish; I know absolutely nothing about plecos. I had no idea they grew so large. Goldfish grow their entire lives; averaging 1" per year. Most folks are clueless about just how big they can grow.

Well, I won't bore you about goldfish, but I'm so glad to find a place I can refer my members that keep plecos; and a place I can get information as well.

I've heard that plecos are nocturnal and are guilty of harrassing goldfish during the night, but atomiclord says the opposite. Funny; I guess goldfish keepers might look at plecos as the bad guy and vice versa.

Thanks so much, Venus

 

[atomiclord]

I've heard that plecos are nocturnal and are guilty of harrassing goldfish during the night, but atomiclord says the opposite. Funny; I guess goldfish keepers might look at plecos as the bad guy and vice versa.

Would you guess that I'm a pleco keeper? I think it would be more a size issue. Hehe jchillin probably knows much more than I though...

 

[Venus]

I'm going to assume that loaches require the same type of housing as plecos? I've often wondered what the difference is.

I'm placing this site in my link collection; for whatever it's worth. It's not very often I come across a friendly site with good info and fast. You guys should get a life.lol

So, I thought brackish meant hard water, but also been told that salting the water makes it harder. Is this right?

 

[atomiclord]

You guys should get a life.lol

Hehe actually some of us are just nocturnal. It's 3AM here...

 

[thatmagicguy]

I'm going to assume that loaches require the same type of housing as plecos? I've often wondered what the difference is.

I'm placing this site in my link collection; for whatever it's worth. It's not very often I come across a friendly site with good info and fast. You guys should get a life.lol

So, I thought brackish meant hard water, but also been told that salting the water makes it harder. Is this right?

Adding salt will increase the conductivity of water. And depending on the salt source, it will have buffers added that can "harden" the water. But adding small amounts of salt will not nescessarily have a major impact on hardness. It does play havoc on a fish's ability to osmoregulate, especially when the levels go up and down in a tank, much the way it does when arbitrary amounts are added and removed and added again in conjunction with water change regimens.

There simply is no reason or science behind adding salt to a tank. It is a method that was made popular by early aquarists, it became more popular by internet culture where it gets spread around on forums and websites but there is no data to suggest it has any real benefits and the science shows it can only be stressful. Not in a critical sense but nonetheless pointless.

It does become a problem when people add it when topping off tanks and during water changes, many people do not realize that salt does not evaporate. Take into account also that people rarely calculate accurately the small amount of salt that is removed during water changes as opposed to the new salt being added during water changes. What happens in effect is that slowly the salt adds up to a critical level and stresses the fish enough to cause problems.

When I had my store I frequently would hear, "My fish are sick, I don't understand, I add salt so they won't get sick." And then after quizzing long enough you find out that no real method is used to add salt and it is increased to critical levels.

To be fair, I used to be a proponent of salt, but once I studied the science behind it then it was apparent that it is an unnescessary annoyance.

Bill

 

[Venus]

Good to know.

I agree to a certain extent. I run into a lot of folks that think it's just fine and dandy to keep goldfish in salt water; they think it keeps their fish from getting sick. Fact is; most of the breeders are salting the heck out of their fish.

I also run into a lot of goldfish websites that recommend extreme amounts of salt for baths and dips, and then when their fish gets worse, they blame it on an unknown disease or (my favorite) genetics. I just recently saw a recipe for a salt bath that called for 1 cup of salt per gallon of water. My salt bath calls for 1 tablespoon per gallon. There really ought to be a law against it.

However, I use salt in several remedies and treatments on my site and have found its properties impressive. For several years I've been experimenting with salts on goldfish and have found their tolerance level to be quite low. A little goes a very long way, and if you have a healthy ecosystem; there's no reason to use it.

I don't know about other fish, but goldfish that have been over salted develop extreme sensitivity to it.

If your water quality is pristine; you should never have to use salt. Unfortunately most of my members are newbies and their goldfish have been kept in horrible water conditions and then over medicated. As I'm sure you know goldfish that are over medicated often develop an extreme sensitivity to meds.

When recommending salt remedies, I go to great measures to instruct on dissolving salt and how to add. More is less is my motto.

I feel about meds, the way you feel about salt.

Lately I've been experimenting with liquid chlorophyll; very impressive stuff. I'm trying to find a treatment for nitrate poisoning; you'll be glad to know that salt isn't it, but chlorophyll; although it's too soon to know; looks promising.

I've often dreamed of having a goldfish shop; why did you give your shop up? Sound to me like you're one in a million.

 

[thatmagicguy]

You know I used to use this analogy in my shop, I brought it up on a different thread, I'll share it with you here. Let's say you have a tank of fish and ich shows up. So you raise the temp, stop feeding, add 2 ounces of Listerine mouthwash. That's right. Mouthwash. Just an arbitrary choice of household products. Well 2 ounces of most things will not kill a tank of fish in a 55 gallon tank. But let's say the ich gets better. Which in most cases it will if a crap load of useless meds aren't added. But if the ich gets better could I not boast that the Listerine fixed them?

Likewise if I have a 55 gallon tank full of fish and I do weekly water changes on it and I periodically add an ounce or two of Listerine and the fish do not die and continue to thrive could I not boast that my fish do great on Listerine?

It is the same with salt. It doesn't kill fish unless a salinity is reached that is fatal to the freshwater fish exposed to it. There simply is no science to show that it has any benefit. Other than people adding it and saying their fish do great. Much like I could say if I really added Listerine.

My point is that unless the mechanics behind the claim can be demonstrated, which up to this point no one has, then it is a benign addition to a tank, until it reaches bothersome levels in a tank.

I am always open to learn new things. And if someone can tell me specifically how salt in an aquarium benefits fish then I am open to believe it. But just saying it is good because the fish that are exposed to it do well is not enough. The fish would probably do well without it as well.

Now salt baths like you mentioned are a different story altogether. They can be used to great effect to remove external parasites. Beyond that, I don't know.

Bill

 

[Venus]

Well now; I can't very well show a demonstration, but I've performed several myself, and I've convinced. Yes, the salt bath is magical for goldfish; unless the fish has been over salted in the past. I've seen it bring back many a dying fish.

As far as bacteria or parasite infection is concerned; I prefer salting the tank as to medicating it, and to date I've never known ich or parasites to disappear on their own. For that matter; if a tank has bacteria in it for any length of time; the fish may also become infected. In this case you're better off treating the entire tank. Where you find salt; you won't find harmful bacteria.

The trick is; gradually increase amounts for a few days and then gradually decrease amounts. I start with 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons; doubling the dosage daily, but also performing daily water changes of 20%. This goes on for five days; then the water changes continue for another five days; removing a good portion of salt; then treatment is repeated.

At the same time I recommend this treatment; I also recommend ways of improving water quality.

Most of the fish I treat or recommend treatment to are in distress with no time to waste, but I only recommend this treatment when there is an actual need. I agree that there's a lot of room for error where salt or even meds are concerned and this is why I'm very specific and post several warnings.

Salt reduces toxic nitrites and reduces stress: Salt used as a tonic or given as a bath restores a goldfishes vitality by restoring slime coat and repairing damage done by lack of oxygen, chlorine, chloramines, ammonia, nitrite, or growth hormone poisoning: If used properly, salt can kill a number of parasites, viruses, and bacteria infections which occasionally affect goldfish.

Goldfish are fresh water fish and salt is not a part of their natural environment, however their bodies do require small amounts of salt for overall good health.

Of course; I'm talking goldfish only. I have no idea how other fish might react to salts. I also am a big Epsom salts fan for goldfish. Love Epsom salts.

 

[thatmagicguy]

I'm glad we're having this discussion. It is not often that one gets to have a clear intelligent exchange of ideas regarding the hobby these days and from my end it is welcome.

Let me answer some of your statements. First though, let me say this. I am not the sort to just arbitrarily point out that someone is wrong and I am always right. I would beg to differ. I love to learn. Alot of what I used to tell people has been clearly pointed out as wrong and listening to some of my early talks or reading some of my early notes makes me laugh or worse become terribly embarrassed. On that thought, I'd like to say that I am open to learning here. Nowadays I try to find a reason or a cause for claims whether they are mine or someone elses.

So first I will address your statement about salting as opposed to medicating. I am very anti medicating for the most part. So I'm sort of in agreement with you. Medicating for things most people do not have the means to diagnose is haphazard and in most instances the chemicals end up furthering the stress related causes of diseases and then the fish die. To be fair, people do medicate and the fish get better. In these instances the fish probably would have recovered anyway and the meds did not help. Much like my listerine analogy.

Your statement that "Where you find salt; you won't find harmful bacteria." simply isn't true. Some of the worst bacteria found in the hobby are in pure salt water. And if your statement were true then there would be no worry of bacterial infections in marine tanks. And we know this is not true. And beneficial bacteria are no different from harmful bacteria in being immune from salt, if salt killed harmful bacteria it would kill beneficial bacteria. And if a particular bacterium could be adversely affected by the addition of salt it would take a high enough amount of salt to have an adverse effect on fish. So while I respect your belief on this matter it just isn't true.

Your statement that, "Salt reduces toxic nitrites and reduces stress" also isn't true. Salt does not neutralize nor does it eliminate nitrites. If this were true then nitrites would never exist in a marine tank. Nor would high nitrites ever be a problem in a freshwater tank if all we had to do is add salt. As far as it reducing stress, again this is a claim with no explanation. How does it reduce stress? What it does in fact is aggravate the fish's skin and promotes slime production, much the way other irritants do. This would not be considered stress relief. It also raises the conductivity of water which has an adverse effect on a fish's ability to osmoregulate. A further example of stress being caused by salt.

Regarding ich. First let me say this. Understanding what ich is and how it operates is a must for aquarists to beat it. I realize you were indicating personal experience regarding seeing it get better with no treatment. But the truth is, a fish is better off if the cause of the outbreak is fixed and the fish is allowed to heal naturally. Ich can and does come under control without the addition of chemicals including salt. I have personal experience in this arena backed up by alot of laboratory type research. The best remedy for ich is to raise the temp to speed up the life cycle of it so that it spends less time on the fish, causing less damage, and to fix the water quality or the cause of the outbreak so that the fish can repair it's main defense, the slime coat. It could be argued that salt helps by irritating the skin thereby causing an increase in slime, but it would be better to let this occur naturally.

We used to say salt assisted in osmosis, the movement of water and waste between the fish and the surrounding water. We know, through science, that in freshwater fish this is impeded by the addition of salt.

Epsom salts are a natural laxative. When a fish can be accurately diagnosed with an intestinal blockage due to a constipation type problem then I would agree that a bath in epsom might be beneficial. I have used it in ryukin and other odd body shaped goldfish with what appear to be swim bladder disorders. In these cases what is most likely happening is that a blockage on the unnaturally shaped digestive pathway is putting pressure on the swim bladder. I have confirmed this through dissections.

Let me say finally again, that salt is added all the time by people who claim it as a remedy for ailments. I have not seen nor has anyone explained again, scientific facts to back it up.

Likewise, as I have explained, evidence proves it IS an irritant which would be counter to it being a remedy.

I have no doubt that keepers have seen fish do well, even recover from disease when salt is added. This proves nothing. It could be said as I stated before that ANY additive could be called a remedy if added in moderation and the fish did well.

I am open to discussion and would be happy to consider other points of view, I enjoy the bantor, I wished more people could engage in it.

Bill

 

[Venus]

I must agree at how pleasurable it is to have an intelligent conversation. I've yet to come across someone in the fish industry that had similar beliefs. Quite the opposite. I've yet to meet a pro that thinks the way you do; it's very refreshing. You are so right about the meds, but....more often than not what is wrong with the fish is poor or should I say less than good water quality.

Yes, you're also right about the bacteria in the salt water. Harmful bacteria can build a resistance to salt, but it there hasn't been any salt added to the tank previously; the bacteria will be eliminated as the goldfish's health is boosted. I should have clarified that.

Like I said; I can't present any evidence at all; just my own experiments which I really don't keep any real record of, and as far as 'scientific' I'm far from a scientist. I don't want to push your theory aside, not at all. I have tried placing sick goldfish that came from the same tank in separate quarantine tanks; some treated with nothing and some treated with various amounts of salts; enough to believe that the salted water is the more beneficial, but the truth is; this was several years ago and maybe I didn't give it enough of a try.

I get a lot of sick goldies on my 911 site; several I do recommend just improving water quality. I also collect a lot of sick goldies from my location; these are the lucky fish that get my experiments. Never with any intent to harm. I've never over salted intentionally, but tried different methods of applications. To date, most fish are easily cured except for those affected by high levels of nitrates.

I'm surprised that no one has joined in on this conversation, but I really don't think that most folks on this site are very interested in salts and goldfish. lol

As for Epsom salts; not just a laxative my friend. I never recommend Epsom to be given internally. These salts are amazing; for humans and goldfish alike as a periodical tonic. I recommend Epsom in a few of my treatments, and you might not like hearing this, but when used with salt and bicarbonate of soda; very beneficial. My goldfish, the oldest being 12yrs experience remarkable good health because of it.

You might just be making a fast trip to the store after reading the following.

Studies show these benefits from the major components of Epsom Salt may:
Magnesium:
• Ease stress and improves sleep and concentration
• Help muscles and nerves function properly
• Regulate activity of 325+ enzymes
• Help prevent artery hardening and blood clots
• Make insulin more effective
• Reduce inflammation to relieve pain and muscle cramps
• Improve oxygen use
Sulfates:
• Flush toxins
• Improve absorption of nutrients
• Help form joint proteins, brain tissue and mucin proteins

I would not recommend any of these salts for use other than goldfish and I hope if someone comes across this post; do not use without following the guidelines of a proven treatment.

Salt is only an iritant when used incorrectly; sort of like a vitamin you take daily; over do and you'll end up sick as a dog.

I'd like to jump to another topic and keep you going, but I'm not what would interest you.
Venus

 

[thatmagicguy]

I've used epsom salt baths for myself and have used them for my daughter to alleviate problems because of the healing qualities. There is good laboratory proof that toxins are removed from humans after bathing in it. They are wonderful for sore muscles.

I have used epsom salts for remedying not only goldfish but also bettas with those distended bellies. I have corrected many fish with bouyancy problems with epsom salt baths. I have lost lots of fish as well when doing this so I am careful about crediting the successes with the salt. However, knowing what I know about human benefits from it I suppose it would benefit other animals as well, fish included.

But also knowing what I know about water chemistry and fish biology I would not use it as a regular additive in an aquarium.

Bill

 

[atomiclord]

Bah. The only thing that should be regularly added to a stable aquarium setup is water. Ferts if you have lots of plants, Bubbles if you have poor gas exchange. I'm of the opinion that unstable tanks (that require large amounts of human intervention to function, such as high-light-high-maintainence planteds and such) are unhealthy for your fish, and downright dangerous if something happens to you and you can't look after your tank. But maybe that's just the conscientious in me coming out...

 

[Venus]

Yes, I see your point Atomiclord, and I very much agree, but tropical fish require much less work than goldfish. I'm quite certain that if (or when I should say) something happens to me; my goldfish are doomed...............

Here's a little story that might interest you guys. It will never cease to fascinate me.

A few years ago, I went to visit a friend; she'd just bought 5 tiny goldfish at the five and dime. They were comets; brilliant splashes of color painted the fish calico. Being an expert on the subject, I offered my advice on keeping goldfish; and even gave her a spare pump; for she had no filtration, no pumps, no mechanics whatsoever.
The plastic tub the fish called home; was a forty gallon, plastic tank; cut lengthwise. One side of the cut was the tank; offering less than twenty gallons of water and the other side became a hinged top, she explained; a deterrent for cats and bad weather. However, I never saw the tank with its lid closed. It sat on her small front porch; just at the end of its cover; getting between two to three hours of sun (depending on the season) each day.

Benefits of Chlorophyll
Each time I went to visit; I became more and more frustrated with her for not adding the small pond pump. When I asked what she was feeding; she confessed she'd quit feeding them since they had expressed no interest. "You've got to feed them something," I told her politely, but firmly, explaining the need for surface action and oxygenating the water. I did my best to convince her to perform weekly water changes, but her response was; "but the water looks clean," she defended.
After a while I gave up on her, and waited for the bad news, but it never came. The goldfish grew bigger and bigger; their coloration deepened. They thrived feeding off the lush growth of substrate algae lining the tank.
Is dumb luck the key to my friend’s accidental success, or is Mother Nature to be credited. She was fortunate that the tank cycled before the goldfish were poisoned by toxins; she was lucky with her choice of location because the sun played a very important role in the survival of her goldfish. Algae formed; grew fast and furiously feeding off nitrates; offering the goldfish a safe and natural environment. It provided bountiful nourishment with high roughage and last, but not least; an endless nesting ground for beneficial bacteria.
The algae substrate formation was encouraged by the sun; consuming carbon dioxide and producing oxygen in the water; the tank needed no surface action; the fish needed no additional food. They had everything they needed inside this twenty gallons.
Some forms of algae unintentionally suffocate or eliminate oxygen from water. Some, by covering the top surface such as string (blanket) algae. Some species of algae reduce oxygen levels in the water just because they take up space; rapidly reproducing; pushing oxygen out of the water; such as green water algae. If these types of algae had been growing in my friend’s tank, it might have been a sad outcome.


Amazing


Forgive the lesson in algae; this was cut and paste from one of my articles


Unfortunately, the story has a terrible ending. My friend was in the process of moving; taking more time than her landlord preferred, and he dumped the tank out in the yard. She's refuses to get fish again. She says she knows she could never be that lucky again. The fish were three years old when they died. Please don't ask how the fish managed to make it throught the winter months; it's a complete mystery; we're in Missouri and the winters are pretty cold here.

She's a strange bird.

 

[jsoong]

I am going to throw in my 2 cents:

There is a lot of controversy regarding salt (this is table salt/aquarium salt ... not chemical salts, which is a whole different kettle of fish ...).

I agree that salt should not be routinely used in a FW setup. A brackish tank is for fish that is adapted to living in salty water, like estuaries or marshes.

However, salt is proven effective in treating many ailments. Ich can be killed with an appropriate concentration of salt (and that is without any temp. increase.), so are many parasites & some bacteria. <Just because salt don't kill ALL bacteria & parasites does not mean that it is not useful.> It is far less stressful than most meds & that is the first thing I use in my goldies, assuming the condition is ameable to salt. That said, salt should only be used for specific reason. Using it routinely & constantly will render it ineffective, as you select out salt resistent strains of bugs.

As for salt & nitrites, NaCl had been scientifically proven to reduce toxic effects of nitrites, so it is a useful adjunct in managing your cycle.

As for Pleco & goldfish .... From all I read, only the dwarf plecos (ie rubberlip & bristlenose) are compatible. Common pleco can suck on the goldies' slimecoat & they get too big anyway. As for the temp requirments, fancy goldies should be kept in the low 70's, and that temp is Ok for plecos. I know some who keep plecos with common goldies in ponds, but they tend to live in warmer places, so the ponds are not that cold ....

I know purists will insist that goldies be kept in species only tank, but I do like a bit of variety.

 

[Venus]

Well, before stumbling across this site (and Bill) I used to think I was a purest, because I never recommend meds, but Bill has set me straight on that. I'm glad to know I've got a little reinforcement out there with the salts. Just a few moments ago I recommended a salt treatment to one of my members, but I have to admit; after talking to Bill I thought long and hard before doing so.

Bill will be glad to know that I've made some adjustments in my salt tonic. I used to recommend every 6 yo 8 weeks and now I've changed that to three to four times a year. You see Bill; you've made a difference. Maybe you'll be less inclined to think so poorly of salts. This is definitely a site I'm going to enjoy.

Appreciate your two cents worth jsoong

 

[thatmagicguy]

I am going to throw in my 2 cents:

There is a lot of controversy regarding salt (this is table salt/aquarium salt ... not chemical salts, which is a whole different kettle of fish ...).

I agree that salt should not be routinely used in a FW setup. A brackish tank is for fish that is adapted to living in salty water, like estuaries or marshes.

However, salt is proven effective in treating many ailments. Ich can be killed with an appropriate concentration of salt (and that is without any temp. increase.), so are many parasites & some bacteria. <Just because salt don't kill ALL bacteria & parasites does not mean that it is not useful.> It is far less stressful than most meds & that is the first thing I use in my goldies, assuming the condition is ameable to salt. That said, salt should only be used for specific reason. Using it routinely & constantly will render it ineffective, as you select out salt resistent strains of bugs.

As for salt & nitrites, NaCl had been scientifically proven to reduce toxic effects of nitrites, so it is a useful adjunct in managing your cycle.

As for Pleco & goldfish .... From all I read, only the dwarf plecos (ie rubberlip & bristlenose) are compatible. Common pleco can suck on the goldies' slimecoat & they get too big anyway. As for the temp requirments, fancy goldies should be kept in the low 70's, and that temp is Ok for plecos. I know some who keep plecos with common goldies in ponds, but they tend to live in warmer places, so the ponds are not that cold ....

I know purists will insist that goldies be kept in species only tank, but I do like a bit of variety.

Just two questions. 1st is in regard to your statement, "Ich can be killed with an appropriate concentration of salt". I would like to know what concentration of salt kills I. multifilis. Maybe I should be clearer, what concentration kills it and does not affect freshwater fish. I have heard this claim but it does not bear out in lab experiments. I have kept Ich alive in small plastic tanks and have used salt concentrations that were almost suitable for marine fish and it still continued in a free swimming stage and also formed tomonts. In repeated experiments I was unable to kill it with salt that did not affect freshwater fish. So this belief or myth that salt kills it simply does not bear out.

I have also used salt to see if it would cause the parasitic stage of ich, the trophozoites, to fall from the fish. In repeated experiments with tiger barbs, gouramis, and silver tipped tetras, I could not affect the ich without killing the fish.

Your second sentence that I wanted to address is this, "As for salt & nitrites, NaCl had been scientifically proven to reduce toxic effects of nitrites, so it is a useful adjunct in managing your cycle."

Once again, this is a common statement about salt reducing the effects of nitrites. This is not true. During extremely high levels of nitrites a fishes blood starts to be affected by the formation of methemoglobins. These inhibit the blood's ability to carry oxygen through the bloodstream to vital organs. It has been claimed that salt prevents this from forming. Once again, lab experiment bear out the truth, that methemoglobins do form and cause suffocation even in the presence of salt.

Salt does not change the chemical makeup of nitrites in the water.

Salt does not prevent nitrite poisoning, or the formation of methemoglobins which cause death.

I would contend that the claim for salt benefiting both ich and high nitrites comes from parallel actions that correct both situations, and the addition of salt, which has no benefit, is also claimed as the agent that fixes these problems.

I am open to change my mind on either subject when someone can actually show me data to prove either point.

I have conducted experiments in both fields, I have done extensive research with ich, I know a great deal about this misunderstood parasite. I have cultured it, raised it, used it to infect fish to experiment with treatments and I have also experimented with ammonia/nitrite/nitrate exposure in fish and also the effects of over the counter products to correct these things.

If someone can present facts, I am willing to change my mind.

Bill

 

[Venus]

Close, but no cigar; I'm thinking you may have confused nitrites with nitrates.

Two or more of the following symptoms may be associated with nitrate poisoning loss of appetite; bottom sitting; bent positioning; curled positioning; crooked spine; uncontrolled swimming; swimming in circles; raised scales or pine coning; spasms or twitching

Nitrates are often confused with toxins similar to ammonia or nitrite, but this is not the case.High nitrate levels create dangerous water conditions by oxidizing the iron atoms in hemoglobin, and by reducing oxygen supply to the blood stream and tissue. This condition is called Methemoglobinemia; closely related to the effects of DCS.

Unlike nitrate poisoning which is deadly if not corrected in the early stages; nitrite poisoning is actually an easy fix; freshwater changes and water treatment that eliminates the toxin.

Unfortunately, when folks find out there nitrate levels are too high; they immediately perform a big freshwater change; which causes further injury to the fish. Nitrates must be removed gradually; much like the skin diver that goes to deep and surfaces too quickly. Right now I'm using liquid chlorophyll to reduce affects of the toxin and it seems to working; time will tell.

The pros recommend using malachite green for nitrate poisoning; which I've tried with complete and utter failure; if the nitrates doesn't kill the fish the malachite will. This is toxic waste.

As for ich; I can't imagine ich would ever go away on its own; even under the best water conditions. I don't know about medications that kill ich; never tried because I've had 100% success treating with salt.