What I learned from 1 year of Research and Experiments on Low Maintenance.

[jarrod0987]

I have been posting a lot of research on this site since it's birth. I have been doing a lot of research on Fresh Water Planted Tanks this year with a focus on low maintenance. I have always preferred Salt Water tanks but I do enjoy all tanks. The Amano stuff really made me curious about Fresh Water again. May he rest in peace.

I wanted to figure out the way to make a beautiful FW tank with as little money, effort, and knowledge as possible. Not for myself but for the many like me who just have no time or money anymore but love aquariums.



So my thoughts at the start...

Q What does most of our time go into?
A Water changes. Sometimes testing but that is optional. There are non testing ways that are successful.

Q So water changes...How much?
A A lot and often.

Q Why?
A Algae. Some say livestock health but most people cannot actually point at a specific livestock issue.

Q What is in the water that makes algae? Is there another way to get it out?
A Some say Ammonia, Nitrate, Phosphate (My belief), Metals, or even organics.

Q Who is right? Are they all contributing factors?
And so the journey began.....

Up next...What I learned. Stay Tuned.

 

[jarrod0987]

Let's talk about lessons learned. I'm not going to list much of the experiments I did here. Way to many of them and I Don't want to argue with trolls about them. If your interested PM Me an Email and we can talk.

So what did I find.

I started with Nitrate and Phosphate. I have methods of reducing those to un-measurable levels. On high quality low range test kits, not just the API ones.
The result was that there was still green stain and fuzz algae growing at first. A lot actually. However, with no water changes and no fish or food added, it did eventually die.
I believe what happened is the Nitrate and Phosphate were eventually consumed completely and this is the reason.
My conclusion is that reducing Nitrate and Phosphate to very low levels is possible but expensive and not a 100% solution. The right algae eaters still need to be employed.
If fish, and therefor food are added, there will be some Nitrate and Phosphate present. Even though API kits cannot see it.

So I wanted to see if spending the money on the filtration methods used to reduce Nitrate and Phosphate to these ultra low levels was even worth it at all in FW. I have already verified it is with SW Reef Tanks.
When adding a lot of nitrate (20 ppm) the green stain and fuzz algae exploded even with no phosphate at all. When I say no Phosphate I mean 0.00 Parts per Billion. No, that is not a typo.
So Nitrate should be kept low as you can with Fish Only. In planted tanks you may need to keep it 10 ppm in the water for some species. Others feed at the roots more.
What About Phosphate? This was my big belief before all these tests.
When I added 20 ppm of Phosphate to a tank that has < 0.03 ppm of nitrate I saw no algae increasing like it did with nitrate. In fact it seemed like none at all. All the nitrate was probably gone at this point.
So what happens if I added Lots of Phosphate and Nitrate together?
Major algae explosion. Green stain and fuzz everywhere. Even the bio film on the glass turned green. Green floating oily stuff on surface. It was a mess.
So N and P do contribute in super high amounts for sure.
I forgot to mention that all this time I was also using Activated carbon to remove the organics but algae still occurred.
I realized at this point not all the organics were removed because the soil added Tannins, a type of organics, to the water which binds up all the metals.
However, some of the yellow always remained no matter how much carbon I used.
So Metals were not an issue but organics must be the root cause.
After all.. some people have done experiments to prove that nitrate and phosphate don't cause algae by just putting a tank with water and lots of N and P and light. They tell me nothing happens.

So that leaves Ammonia and Organics.

I am still doing research on Ammonia. Adding sometimes caused the water go go very cloudy very fast, even in total darkness. This would be bacteria and not algae. I tried to get green water by adding light but due to another experiment nothing happened. Have to repeat that.
I have found that even in tanks with no detectable ammonia by regular test kits like API and Seachem's Ammonia alert there is still a detectable level. Up to perhaps 0.2 ppm as per Hanna LR Ammonia Checker.
The test tank I speak about above had none though. The tank that had a trace amount had much less algae. I reduced the amount in that tank to 0.01 ppm and after a month still about the same.
To me that means algae eaters are worth way more then the ammonia absorbing media. Cheaper and easier too.

This leaves organics.
The thing you have to understand is it is an extremely broad umbrella that covers many many compounds int he water. None of which we can test for.
By this point I had found some much more scientific information on this subject. I had also joined the Aquatic Gardeners Association and bought all the convention lecture DVD's and many of there back issues. I had read Diana Walstad and Tom Barr's work and watched many video's on Amano San's Approach. I also found some advanced discussion on the topic at Scapefu.

Putting it all together, here is what seems like the most likely scenario to me.

As the food (eaten or not) breaks down it goes through several stages. Several of these stages are dissolved. They make organic molecules before they break down all the way to inorganic molecules like nitrate and phosphate.
No big shocker.
Here is where it gets interesting.
Some of these organics are "complex nutrients" as opposed to simple nutrients like Nitrate or Phosphate etc.
Some of this stuff may occur during the breakdown of organics etc.
Some of it is generated by bacteria that east the nitrates and phosphates.

From what I read it works like this:

Waste breaks down into many organic compounds at various levels. Eventually to nitrate and phosphate.
Then bacteria eat those simple nutrients and build them into complex nutrients which are now organic molecules again.
B12 is a vitamin which only comes from bacterial action and some say it is required by black beard algae to live.

Algae needs these complex nutrients to live because it is a simple single celled organism and does not have the means to build it's own complex nutrients from simple ones like more complex multi-cellular plants can.

This fits. It is why do doing water changes, reducing nitrates, reducing phosphates, using activated carbon, and vacuuming all help.
It is why lots more waste or the use of new soil which is loaded with organics causes major algae.
It is also why you could have some nitrate and phosphate in certain situations and have no major outbreak of algae.

It explains everything. It all fits.

Up next I will discuss what my low tech approach would now be. Very different from what I would have told you a year ago. Mostly because I was very wrong about many things regarding Nitrate and Phosphate in FW.

 

[jarrod0987]

So what is my new low cost, low maintenance approach?

Here are my thoughts. I will divide them into 3 broad categories. Plants Only perhaps with algae eaters, Plants and Fish, and Fish Only.


Let's start with plants only.
Organics come from mostly from fish food. Weather it was eaten or not.
No fish means way less water changes.
I would add 10 ppm nitrate and 3 ppm phosphate as well as at least 10 ppm of potassium each time I did a WC or as it was depleted.
If you don't like testing then Tom Barr's EI method is great for you.
I found the whole 10 to 1 ratio thing to have no effect on reducing algae. It is just the ratio that my dirted planted tank consumes. Most of the nitrate is consumed by the soil/wood mix I used and not plants.
Experimentation is ongoing but it looks like it is the wood that is doing all the nitrate reduction. It's powerful but counter productive because it adds organics and removes needed (By plants) nitrate.

So I recommend if plants are your thing and you have no time just skip the fish. it will save you a lot of problems and I suspect you would need very few water changes.
You may have no algae at all with this method. I have not got to test it yet but I plan too. If you do have some algae then get the right algae eaters for the type that you have. Amano shrimp are supposed to be good at all types. Snails seem to do more for keeping my glass clean then for the algae control. They do sometimes eat it but they prefer the smooth surfaces of glass by far IMO.

If I had fish only then I would focus on light and automated water changes as much as possible.
No direct light means no algae. I have defiantly verified this
I thing water changes of large amounts often enough removes the need for all testing except for the initial cycle tests and occasional ammonia test.
Doing them is a PITA!!
So focus on that.
The Python is a great product for this. Aqueon makes a similar product. It is still slow and kind of a PITA.
Some other people have developed semi permanent plumbing solutions with dual in-line activated carbon blocks (For chlorine removal) for very easy water changes on massive FW systems.

In larger systems, and even smaller ones, if you want crystal clear water I recommend Purigen. Lasts for ever and can be recharged a few times. Seems to do better the ROX activated carbon at removing the yellowing compounds known as tannins.
This should reduce water changes a lot.

So how much water how often. At least 50% at least once a week seems to be the collective experience but you may be able to do less with Purigen etc. Now fast your nitrates accumulate is a good indicator IMO.
The real answer is what you can get away with and not have algae that your algae eaters can't handle.

I recommend the use of the right algae eaters more then anything else. They are cheap and the right ones are highly effective.

Systems with a heavy fish load or fresh soil will be the worst as far as algae and maintenance goes.
I also thing UV sterilizers may be a powerful tool but I have not played with them yet. They are usually too pricey for a small FW system etc.

If you have both fish and plants you can treat it like a fish only system as far as WC and Purigen goes. You will need to add a lot of ferts for some plants that don't have good roots if you do a lot of WC.
If you have heavy root feeders like Amazon Swords you may be able to do just root tabs and or inorganic substrates such as Seachem's Onyx or Flourite.

So that is what a year of heavy research into freshwater and planted systems has taught me.
My apologies to everyone I argued with about Phosphate It defiantly can cause problems in FW but only when combined with Organics and Nitrates. If anything...Nitrates are a bigger problem. My research into that continues.

 

[Caliban07]

I think you may be on to something with excess ammonia being the cause of algae then I believe the type of algae is defined by the components within the system.

Everything I have read points to ammonia but maybe it is the way in which ammonia is produced that is the key.

I had a small tank I put in my back yard with a soil substrate. The rain quickly filled this tank and I sat there for weeks and weeks. Not in the brightest spot in the garden. Every time I put the rubbish out I would look at the tank hoping to see if any new life had taken off but it never did. There was even I dead leaf rotting away in there but the water was crystal clear.

Now for the bit that may lose me some AA friends. One night my girlfriend was using the bathroom and I needed to pee so bad that I had to go in the back yard. I was peeing minding my own business then I had a brainstorm. I peed in to the tank. Within 2 days the tank was overridden with green water algae. In less than a week the tank walls were covered in algae.

What gives?


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[Fresh2o]

Jarrod - If we did not question things, then how would we learn and grow? I appreciate the research you've done.
Caliban - Talk about jump starting a system. You've added water, urea, uric acid, ammonia, hormones, dead blood cells, proteins, salts and minerals, and toxins. Apparently one or more of those ingredients triggered an algae bloom. I won't ask what you've been eating. Interesting observation, though.


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[jarrod0987]

I too am vary curious about ammonia. If your doing any research on it I highly recommend the Hanna Low Range Ammonia Checker. I thing 0.00-3.00 is a more appropriate range. I think they even make one that does PPB but I forgot.

Something I did not mention. The last time I added ammonia to the test tank I had lights off except for the blue night time LED's I did not realize were on. The water got very cloudy. I swear it had a slight greenish tint.

Dosed around 4ml per gal of peroxide for an unrelated experiment. Lights all off now. Tanks was very crystal clear by this time. Trying to regrow the BB which is still present but got knocked way back based on how long they take to work now.
This time I added ammonia with lights on and nothing really happened to the water. There is some green stain type algae starting in the usual places but this always happens no mater what I add or don't add. So that is kind of confusing. Maybe the peroxide burned up a bunch of organics that were also required for the cloudy water.

On the subject of urine, I have discovered the smallest amount of urine will produce a very strong reaction on the API ammonia test. However, the test does not seem to be able to differentiate between ammonia and urea. There are urea test kits available but around 100$ and need to be refrigerated. Tom Barr said in one of his articles that adding ammonia produced green water but when he did it with urea (By adding a bunch of snails) he got staghorn instead.

 

[Autumnsky]

Thankful Jarrod, I didn't have to do the research. Most times I would probably enjoy it to some degree, but with my life so busy atm, not a bit of patience for that now. I love learning though, (why I might enjoy it).

I was doing some reading about the two basic bacteria we see in our tanks

"Autotrophic Bacteria - Bacteria capable of synthesizing its own food from inorganic substances, using light or chemical energy. Our beneficial filter bacteria are autotrophs.

Heterotrophic Bacteria - Bacteria that cannot synthesize its own food and is dependent on complex organic substances for nutrition. The heterotrophs in our aquariums mineralise the organic waste (break down the uneaten food, fish waste, dead plant matter etc into ammonia)."
Someone named backtotropical and quoted from here to give credit where credit is due. Bacterial Blooms Explained - New to the Hobby Questions and Answers - Tropical Fish Forums

Which got me wondering about the organics in our water...???

 

[Caliban07]

Jarrod - If we did not question things, then how would we learn and grow? I appreciate the research you've done.
Caliban - Talk about jump starting a system. You've added water, urea, uric acid, ammonia, hormones, dead blood cells, proteins, salts and minerals, and toxins. Apparently one or more of those ingredients triggered an algae bloom. I won't ask what you've been eating. Interesting observation, though.


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It's the water of life clearly ?


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[Caliban07]

I too am vary curious about ammonia. If your doing any research on it I highly recommend the Hanna Low Range Ammonia Checker. I thing 0.00-3.00 is a more appropriate range. I think they even make one that does PPB but I forgot.

Something I did not mention. The last time I added ammonia to the test tank I had lights off except for the blue night time LED's I did not realize were on. The water got very cloudy. I swear it had a slight greenish tint.

Dosed around 4ml per gal of peroxide for an unrelated experiment. Lights all off now. Tanks was very crystal clear by this time. Trying to regrow the BB which is still present but got knocked way back based on how long they take to work now.
This time I added ammonia with lights on and nothing really happened to the water. There is some green stain type algae starting in the usual places but this always happens no mater what I add or don't add. So that is kind of confusing. Maybe the peroxide burned up a bunch of organics that were also required for the cloudy water.

On the subject of urine, I have discovered the smallest amount of urine will produce a very strong reaction on the API ammonia test. However, the test does not seem to be able to differentiate between ammonia and urea. There are urea test kits available but around 100$ and need to be refrigerated. Tom Barr said in one of his articles that adding ammonia produced green water but when he did it with urea (By adding a bunch of snails) he got staghorn instead.

Thanks for the reference but my true testing days are over although I have witnessed a few unintentional happenings in my tank lately.

I suspect that the process involved for stimulating algae is far more complex than we realise. But we must try to separate and distinguish between cause and exacerbation. For example, nitrates and phosphates whether high or low or any other nutrient excess or deficiency my contribute to the problem but may not directly be the cause. What causes an algae cell to go from spore to flagellate? Is it more likely that once this phenomenon has occurred that the conditions within the system help to fuel the fire? After all, algae in flagellate form feed just as plants do and require all the same elements to survive. They do not need as much of each element to grow and send out more spores which turn to flagellates etc..so once they are in that form they need to be removed and the system reset so that the cause removed.

Now I do believe that bacteria and algae work cohesively. Vitamin b12 is a valid case one of which I have read about before.

Tom Barr himself attributes ammonia to algae. But maybe it is the process in which ammonia is produced that causes algae to populate. If ammonia was the route cause of algae then everyone who did a fishless cycle would experience a green water algae bloom. But does ammonium chloride directly cause ammonia? Not likely. But then there is little organics in a new set up or bacterial colony.

The is more likely a chain of events that releases certain chemicals, hormones, vitamins that when ammonia is in excess prompts algae to grow.

Now why does algae grow? What would be the one fundamental reason while algae would grow in an environment where ammonia produced organically is in excess?

In my opinion that is to protect other lifeforms and to restore balance to the system.

High levels of free ammonia can damage bacteria one study shown. High levels of free ammonia will kill other lifeforms. It is natures intention that life goes on and so algae are trigger to draw on ammonia, which helps bacteria recover, who stabilise the system who both provide oxygen, food and shelter for microscopic organisms who then provide food for higher animals. The system stabilises and plants return are introduced. They provide more shelter and oxygen and food and so algae resides. Takes a back seat and all is well. The system is balanced.

In a high light tank with ample co2 and nutrients, the plants and bacteria colony should ensure that any ammonia produced is quickly used up. There should never be an excess. When the system is running in perfect harmony little algae occurs. It's when things change all of a sudden which impinges on the bacteria or plants ability to uptake ammonia. That's when algae spore (which are always there) sense it is time to transform and grow. Are they in competition? Probably but can algae grow without ammonia?

This is my take. It's only a theory of course.


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[jarrod0987]

This is the convo I have been trying to get going here for a year. instead of the fighting

I have read on Auto and Hetero tropes for years. The aquarium books don't say much. DW's book says a lot though. Water treatment info says way way more.

Faculative Bacteria are also present and can switch I believe.

I think I read Tom say Ammonia feeds the spores then Nitrate and Phosphate feed the adult algae but it looks like it does not do it directly. It has to be built up into complex nutrients by bacteria first. It can directly feed more advanced plants that can build it up them self.

I agree on the cause/trigger vs magnify issue as well.

I have also discussed Ammonia levels with Dr. Tim and he also states that if ammonia is to high it can kill the nitrifiers not feed them. We probably all did that when first experimenting with fish-less cycling back in the day. Probably added way to much ammonia.

It seems like we are each taking our own path to the same place on figuring out what is going on. That means it probably has a higher chance of being close to right. For myself I think I am close to the end of my journey. I plan to switch to coral farming in the next few months. No fish, just corals. Will see what I can get away with for WC with no waste going in all the time. I think water treatment facility techs and scientists would really know many of the answers we are looking for but those folks don't come around much.

They even have formulas for how much aeration you need to process exactly how much organics etc.

 

[jarrod0987]

Tonight I was able to confirm that it was the wood portion of the MGOC Potting soil that was causing the nitrates to drop to 0 ppm. A 1 inch layer of it was buried under 1 inch of gravel and water was aerated with an air stone.

The next question is can it run the same effect in an up flow reactor or does it have to be under substrate. I am hoping that even if the water around the wood is aerated that inside the wood it will be sufficiently anaerobic enough to cause the effect.

Wood does give off strong tannins. The yellow color is very unattractive to me but some people like it. I am imagining an up flow reactor with filter floss for particles, wood chips for nitrates, activated carbon for organics, and GFO for phosphate and silicate. ROX Activated carbon does not do as good of a job removing tannins as Purigen so I would probably even make Purigen a second stage. This approach is impractical due to cost for a small system but in a large system with loads of waste such as a 300 gal African Cichlid tank, this might be a very valid approach.

For those who are wondering about if breaking down wood could cause a rise in phosphate or some other thing I would say no. Wood is made up of Cellulose and Lignin. Wiki shows there structures to only contain C,O, and H atoms. There could be some small amount of P in other compounds in the wood but I doubt it will be much. It might cause a lot of carbonic acid while breaking down but so doesn't all the poo. African tanks usually have higher buffering anyways.

Some folks may argue the usual mantra of "Why don't you just change the water". 2 reasons. The first Big WC is a Big PITA in a Big Tank. I don't care what people say about the Python. It still took for freakin ever in a 75 gal. Imagine a 400 gal? The second reason is even in a 75 gal with only 3 juvenile African Cichlids getting a 90% WC every week I was unable to get Nitrate bellow 5 ppm. Certainly 5 ppm is no problem but if I slacked off for a week it shot up over 20 ppm sometimes.

To be clear, I don't think this will prevent all algae. It should help some. I don't think it will hurt either. I will probably test this approach out soon. I also think it may be worth trying to soak out as much tannins from the wood ahead of time as possible but I don't know if it goes all the way through tot he center or not. Maybe it will always be present.

Before someone blows a gasket I would like to say that this does NOT mean WC is not needed. It is just way to reduce it. That is common in large SW Fish Only systems due to the cost of SW per gal. So why not in FW to save time.