29 gallon Goldfish Tank...New start, Old Hobbyist

[Hyper27]

It was 5 years ago that I started my hobby of having goldfish. I started with 5 goldfish in a 29 gallon aquarium. In the first week, my bubble eye got stuck in the filter, and eventually, died. I added another fish, and it was due to my lach of resistance at the petstore. It had swim bladder. Everything was fine for a while, but all the fishes were starting to get stuck in the filter. We were doing the water changes and all, Filter was a 50 gallon one, and we were feeding them well too. Then they got ich, it was cured and all was fine. They started to die from filter wounds. There was also disease due to my stupidity of adding snails that were being used at my school's terrarium project. One by one the fishes started to fall until one was left. My red and white Ryukin. It lasted quite a bit, until I added a bigger Calico ryukin, which looked like it had ich inside its gills. There was a lot of aggression as it chased my smaller one all over the place. I divided them, but they got ich and started to die away. My calico died and then my red and white one. I stayed away from fish for 3 years from then, as I was tired of it all.

After quite a bit of research, I realized how stupid I was throughout all of this. I understand that 5 fancies in a 29 gallon was way too much and that adding more was even worse. The only thing I don't understand is why the Calico was aggressive. Was it breeding behavior?

Besides that, I am starting over and looking to have a two Ryukin/Oranda/Telescope eyes in a 29 gallon ( as in maybe a 2 ryukins, or 2 orandas, or a combination in between those). Is this a size that will allow them to grow and live a healthy life? If so, I will hopefully upgrade to a 75 gallon sometime when they are bigger and add more fish to have a final product of 4-6 fish.

Lastly, as the substrate, should I use Aquarium Sand or Gravel? I have used gravel in the past but I was just wondering... Additionally, What filter should I use? Would it work if I had one REALLY powerful filters or just one? What type of Air stone operating system should I have and should I use live plants, or just use the plastic ones for decoration?

I know these are a lot of questions, but I really want to make sure it all goes well this time. I really appreciate any answers!

Hyper27

 

[Fishanatic]

No, they will not be at the happiest state obviously, because all goldfish, if not almost all are pond fish. They will be happy though, but 29 is the base limit for two goldfish, keep that in mind. They will grow, maybe not to the ultimate maximum though, but they do get quite big and impressive.
You can use sand, as long as it's heavy enough to sink to the bottom, some sands are lighter, and the particles mess up and clog the filter. For a filter, I would recommend an aquaclear or c series. Very good filters.

Not sure about you're other fish's aggression problem though.

 

[SKB]

Sometimes goldfish will show aggression if they want to establish power in the tank for some reason, or maybe it was trying to breed. I had this happen once when I had goldfish (put in a pond now), I had three of my goldfish following the other and mouthing at it. seriously for like a half an hour or longer. Eventually they will stop, but if it happens again, you can always get a tank divider for temporary relief.

But as said above, 2 goldfish should fit in your 29, not 3. Goldfish produce a lot of waste and they can get quite large! If you buy three, they could become stressed, and end up like last time and you would have to clean your tank a lot, once a week or more.

 

[Sharpchick]

Two fancies in a 29 will be okay for quite a while. I usually prefer gravel to sand in a goldfish tank to be able to deep vacuum it, which you can't do with sand. In the end I think that's personal preference.

For filters, I have three - 2 HOB and one sponge filter. You should shoot to filter a goldfish tank 10 times the volume of the tank. I have sponge filters in all my tanks (not just the goldfish tank) for extra biological filtration, and because, in a power outage, they can run off a battery operated air pump.

 

[Hyper27]

Thanks guys!
Alright, I will be getting only 2 fancies and will be going with white gravel. I want my fish to have healthy anf high protein diet so their Wen/Ryukin Hump will be more pronounced. What is a good diet? Additionally, I am still undecided about live plants... other than the nitrogen cycle, do the help in any big way? Lastly, what is a good filter and aeration system I should use?
Thanks,
Hyper27

 

[Fishanatic]

Thanks guys!
Alright, I will be getting only 2 fancies and will be going with white gravel. I want my fish to have healthy anf high protein diet so their Wen/Ryukin Hump will be more pronounced. What is a good diet? Additionally, I am still undecided about live plants... other than the nitrogen cycle, do the help in any big way? Lastly, what is a good filter and aeration system I should use?
Thanks,
Hyper27

1. Hikari and Nutrafin are my personal favorites. Get the sinking pellets or floating pellets. I would rarely/never use the flakes. High protein isn't much of a matter, it's the quality of the food. Problem is these use cheap fillers. Other company's use spirulina, not sure witch, but it will be marked.
2. Plants are amazing to help control the co2 and parameters of the tank(ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). It might also slow or even stall the process of cycling as it might consume too much ammonia.
3. For a tank that small, I would stick to a Fluval c4 or an aqua clear 70. Very good hang on filters. You could always opt for some canisters if you want. The air pumps are you're choice. There are some quiet one's labeled as quiet, and i know you can find techniques to make them quiet. But the majority makes a lot of noise. I have a tetra whisper, and it does a really good job. Honestly, some people don't even use air pumps and it works fine. For you, I would go for a 10 gallon air pump. It should be enough for both fish

 

[Hyper27]

1. Hikari and Nutrafin are my personal favorites. Get the sinking pellets or floating pellets. I would rarely/never use the flakes. High protein isn't much of a matter, it's the quality of the food. Problem is these use cheap fillers. Other company's use spirulina, not sure witch, but it will be marked.
2. Plants are amazing to help control the co2 and parameters of the tank(ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). It might also slow or even stall the process of cycling as it might consume too much ammonia.
3. For a tank that small, I would stick to a Fluval c4 or an aqua clear 70. Very good hang on filters. You could always opt for some canisters if you want. The air pumps are you're choice. There are some quiet one's labeled as quiet, and i know you can find techniques to make them quiet. But the majority makes a lot of noise. I have a tetra whisper, and it does a really good job. Honestly, some people don't even use air pumps and it works fine. For you, I would go for a 10 gallon air pump. It should be enough for both fish

For plants stalling the nitrogen cycle, isn't that a bad thing as it is best if the bacteria turn the ammonia into nitrate as quick as possible?

 

[jlk]

29g for two fancies is a good start! As you are already considering an upgrade in the future, they should be fine for now. As its already been mentioned, 10x the tank size (300gph) would be the minimum for filtration but I run quite a bit more than this with my piggies. Dont be afraid of hefty filtration but do consider covering the intakes with filter foam to prevent any misshaps.

You will also need to consider whether you want to fishless or fishin cycle this tank. Both have pros and cons but I generally recommend with fancies to try and opt for a fishless cycle (if possible) because they do not handle toxins very well. Fishin can be performed safely with lots of frequent water changes but it does take commitment.

In respect to your one fish attacking others in the past was most likely due to aggression from a heavily overstocked tank. Goldies are social creatures in general but they also have very distinct personalities, much like people. Not all of them are pleasant or friendly. In cramped quarters, it will bring out the worst in anyone's personality (this includes people too, lol!). Thie link below should help to answer some questions as well especially in respect to dietary needs. Please ask any questions!

http://www.myaquariumclub.com/goldfish-101-11174823.html

 

[Fishanatic]

For plants stalling the nitrogen cycle, isn't that a bad thing as it is best if the bacteria turn the ammonia into nitrate as quick as possible?

Well, as they say, you can never have too many plants. I guess it's right. It's not a bad thing as long as you're plants act like the bacteria by consuming the toxins. Though I'm not a plant expert, sorry.

 

[jlk]

For plants stalling the nitrogen cycle, isn't that a bad thing as it is best if the bacteria turn the ammonia into nitrate as quick as possible?

Plants will NOT stall a cycle. Plants help to create a healthy environment for your fish- more the better! The issue here will be what plants your goldies will allow you to keep. They will decide this, not you. The best plants to start with are hardy ones such as anubias. Anubias will have zero effect on cycling due to their slow growth but it will allow you time to 'train' your goldies to eat veggies daily. Once they are well accustomed to this, then you can start adding additional plants to see what survives. The idea is to have your goldies prefer the veggies you feed them vs the free salad bar in your tank. Adding some plants just for them to munch on will help, too.

 

[Sharpchick]

A densely planted tank (80% or more of the footprint planted, especially with fast growing stem plants) you don't stall the cycle. You have a silent cycle. No spikes in ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. Very good for the fish and the water quality.

But one or two plants won't do that - it has to be densely planted.

You might want to read this article by Rex Grigg if you're interested in a planted tank. I followed his instructions for my 20 gallon long (tropical community tank). It works.

 

[Hyper27]

A densely planted tank (80% or more of the footprint planted, especially with fast growing stem plants) you don't stall the cycle. You have a silent cycle. No spikes in ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. Very good for the fish and the water quality.

But one or two plants won't do that - it has to be densely planted.

You might want to read this article by Rex Grigg if you're interested in a planted tank. I followed his instructions for my 20 gallon long (tropical community tank). It works.

http://www.fishlore.com/aquariummagazine/oct07/images/29G-plant-tank-lg.jpg
Would that count as planted?
So basically, the idea is that you plant the aquarium, add the fish after a few days and then the regular cycle of good bacteria will build on this "silent cycle" as well, correct? If so, is there a good way to quarantine plants to insure the aquarium is not infected?
Edit: That isn't my tank BTW... Lastly, If I introduce others later in a bigger tank, will my two have any chance of being aggressive to the newer fish? Is there aggression between bigger and non-familiar smaller goldfish as well?

 

[Sharpchick]

http://www.fishlore.com/aquariummagazine/oct07/images/29G-plant-tank-lg.jpg
Would that count as planted?
So basically, the idea is that you plant the aquarium, add the fish after a few days and then the regular cycle of good bacteria will build on this "silent cycle" as well, correct? If so, is there a good way to quarantine plants to insure the aquarium is not infected?
Edit: That isn't my tank BTW... Lastly, If I introduce others later in a bigger tank, will my two have any chance of being aggressive to the newer fish? Is there aggression between bigger and non-familiar smaller goldfish as well?

No, the photo you linked to would not be densely planted as Rex Grigg recommends. There are not enough stem plants in it to start the silent cycle. If you've read the article, then you know that fast growing stem plants need and use the ammonia and nitrates that come from fish.

And if you start the tank as Grigg recommends, there is no need to quarantine the plants. The main tank IS the quarantine tank.

Plants bring their own BB to the tank.

There can be aggression in any goldfish tank that is 1) crowded; 2) unstable with respect to water chemistry; and/or 3) composed of fancy goldfish and pond fish. Pond fish are faster, more streamlined fish that can out compete fancies for food and territory.

Here's my 20 gallon long. Although I do have a few crypts and a sword, as you can see, the bulk of the real estate is planted with fast growing stem plants - cabomba, hygro, rotala, anacharis.

The only bare spots in the gravel are at the front of the tank, in front of the driftwood.

 

[Hyper27]

No, the photo you linked to would not be densely planted as Rex Grigg recommends. There are not enough stem plants in it to start the silent cycle. If you've read the article, then you know that fast growing stem plants need and use the ammonia and nitrates that come from fish.

And if you start the tank as Grigg recommends, there is no need to quarantine the plants. The main tank IS the quarantine tank.

Plants bring their own BB to the tank.

There can be aggression in any goldfish tank that is 1) crowded; 2) unstable with respect to water chemistry; and/or 3) composed of fancy goldfish and pond fish. Pond fish are faster, more streamlined fish that can out compete fancies for food and territory.

Here's my 20 gallon long. Although I do have a few crypts and a sword, as you can see, the bulk of the real estate is planted with fast growing stem plants - cabomba, hygro, rotala, anacharis.

The only bare spots in the gravel are at the front of the tank, in front of the driftwood.

Ok, so for the quarantining part, how can I still be sure that the plants will have a disease? It says in the article to add the fish a few days after the plants and since there will be no fish in the aquarium at the time, how can I be sure? Also, is it harder to clean the aquarium with the plants inside during water changes?
BTW, is that a canister filter?

 

[Sharpchick]

Ok, so for the quarantining part, how can I still be sure that the plants will have a disease? It says in the article to add the fish a few days after the plants and since there will be no fish in the aquarium at the time, how can I be sure? Also, is it harder to clean the aquarium with the plants inside during water changes?
BTW, is that a canister filter?

Plants rarely have diseases that can be passed to fish. More likely would be tiny little pond snails hitchhiking in on the plants, but goldies can dispatch with those real quick. There is a goldfish message board that has apparently decided plants have to be bleached before adding them to a tank. IMO, that is ludicrous, harmful to the plants, and indicative of a mindset that doesn't know much about aquatic plants.

The filter is a sponge filter. I have one of those - sized appropriately for the tank - in each of my tanks for extra biological filtration, and in event of power failure so I can hook.up a battery powered air pump.

 

[Sharpchick]

Forgot to address your question.about cleaning the tank...

In a highly planted tank, you are only changing water. Waving your hand over and in the plants will loosen any debris, which can then be removed by the filter or water changer. You do not vacuum the substrate. Of course, you also pick out dead leaves, prune plants, etc., when you change water.

 

[Hyper27]

Forgot to address your question.about cleaning the tank...

In a highly planted tank, you are only changing water. Waving your hand over and in the plants will loosen any debris, which can then be removed by the filter or water changer. You do not vacuum the substrate. Of course, you also pick out dead leaves, prune plants, etc., when you change water.

Thanks! Do you know a good place to buy goldfish at low prices other than my local petstores? At my local petstore, all they have are some Red and White Ryukins, Calico Ryukins, Black Moores, and a few Orange Orandas. I want a Blue Oranda/Red Capped Oranda and something like a Panda Moore.

 

[jlk]

I disinfect any plant with potassium permagante before adding it. Hydrogen peroxide can also be used. Although the chances of a plant carrying something such as ich cysts or anchor worm are not great, the threat is still there. Theres also other creatures beyond snails that can hitch a ride which can be impossible to erradicate.

If your seeking fancies beyond what your local stores have available, expect to pay a premium price in addition to overnight shipping. Also keep in mind that any nontypical color (panda, blue, black, green, calico, etc) will be temporary at best. You can check out Rain Garden Goldfish, the Goldfish Connection (live online auction every weekend) and BuyGoldfishOnline BuyGoldfishOnline also sells individual fish on Ebay. Skip Goldfish.net as the number of issues with their fish could fill a novel.

Silent cycling does work but just keep in mind that this will be difficult with goldfish and really only works with low-bioload fish that are not plant destroyers.

 

[Hyper27]

I disinfect any plant with potassium permagante before adding it. Hydrogen peroxide can also be used. Although the chances of a plant carrying something such as ich cysts or anchor worm are not great, the threat is still there. Theres also other creatures beyond snails that can hitch a ride which can be impossible to erradicate.

If your seeking fancies beyond what your local stores have available, expect to pay a premium price in addition to overnight shipping. Also keep in mind that any nontypical color (panda, blue, black, green, calico, etc) will be temporary at best. You can check out Rain Garden Goldfish, the Goldfish Connection (live online auction every weekend) and BuyGoldfishOnline BuyGoldfishOnline also sells individual fish on Ebay. Skip Goldfish.net as the number of issues with their fish could fill a novel.

Silent cycling does work but just keep in mind that this will be difficult with goldfish and really only works with low-bioload fish that are not plant destroyers.

Do you think I should just do a fishless cycle in the beginning then? The problem is... I don't have any seeds... but the plants could possibly contain harmful pathogens and if you disinfect, there will be no seeds.

 

[jlk]

A tank will still cycle whether you seed the tank or not. No worries! It just takes a bit longer from scratch than using cycled media. Do you live in the US? If so, you can purchase cycled ('active') filters from Angelsplus.

Aquarium Sponge Filters