Help!

[Younger94]

Now I always had a love of having pets and due to parents working and school, we never had time for anything but fish. I was at the age where I didn't know how to look after them really, just liked watching them in their bowl. Now I'm much older, my girlfriend surprised me with a fish tank for Christmas and I was thrilled at relieving some of my younger days.

After following the correct procedures, of filling the tank with water (plus the appropriate products to make it safe), letting it cycle through, I brought my first fishes. Now a few notes about the tank. It's a little over 80 pints so it's 45 litres/10 gallons. Originally set up with a quirky opening and shutting oyster/clam shell (through the air pump), small gravel, the usual niknaks (with hiding places) and a filter which we later found out to be just a little to small for the tank. It was stocked with a weather loach and two fancy fantail goldfish, managed by regular 10% water changes every 4 or so days. These fish kept happily, for around 4 months, till I had my first casualty. This was due to the saving of a friend of a friend's fancy goldfish that was being threaten due to being a now unwanted pet. Was added to the tank and quickly things changed. After noticing the death, I quickly moved the new addition to the bowl he came in, but the damage was done and my other fancy quickly died. This left me with the separated fancy and my weather loach.

As it was unclear of what exactly happened, we emptied the big tank, washing everything out and left it dry for about a month. It's now been reused (again using the correct procedures we'd been directed on) and bought two more fancy goldfish. We readded the weather loach to this tank at the time, whilst keeping the other fish in it's separate bowl. With a similar cleaning regime as before, I also bought a new filter. This stated it was, on its own, big enough to handle the tank on it's own, however I used both at the same time. After about a month I purchased one more weather loach after hearing they loved to live with other loaches. Around this point, I had to remove the old filter (the one that was slightly too small), due to inspecting the filter and it being clogged, however I assumed this would be okay, due the capacity of my other filter. A few weeks later I notice my fancys acting sluggishly, swimming slightly wonky. I diagnosed this as bloating/swim bladder problems, so promptly stopped feeding for two days. After this time was up I fed a small portion of cooked rice with cooked deshelled peas into the tank. The fish seemed livelier so I assumed the problem had been solved. Another week went by and the sluggish behaviour soon returned, so I moved them to a holding bowl, three days later, one has past away. The other is remaining in the bowl (fresh water), as I'm desperately trying to cycle the large tank so he can placed in there!

I'd love to know what I'm doing wrong, because all I want is what everyone else seems to have, that crystal clear tank with nice healthy and interesting fish.


Oh and for added detail the usual diet of the fish are: Flakes and dried Daphina for the fancys and pellets for my loaches. Both the loaches seem fine and happy to, with Wally living up to his name of being impossible to find. The tank itself is positioned in my room, away from direct sunlight and often left with the fan window open and the door shut. Any more details you need just let me and I'll supply them!

 

[Jantaris]

Hi there...

Welcome to the forum! I'm no great expert but I'll take a stab at a couple of things.

First thing to note is that goldfish have a higher bio load than many other fish and they really need about 10 gallons each to themselves, so you may be putting a lot of stress on your filter. As well, I'd suggest over filtering for your tank. We're guilty right now of housing 3 fancies in a 15 but it is a very temporary situation and we're over filtering.

How long did you initially cycle for? Did you check water parameters with a liquid test kit? These are all things you can benefit from doing and if we know how you started, we may be better able to help.
The filter. Best thing to do is to keep your old filter and the inserts as that is where all your good beneficial bacteria is stored. I think you said you got rid of the old one but just for future reference, it's a great idea to keep them. I do understand your concerns, though.

I am hoping this will get someone else's attention who can perhaps offer some better info for you.

 

[FishCr8zy]

What type of filter do u have?
U want one that is meant for twice the amount of water ur tank can hold. For example:
10 gallon tank = filter meant for 20 gallon tank.
And yes, goldfish need big tanks due to there endless supply of waste materials.
How often do u do water changes?
I would do a 30% water change every Saturday and also clean the gravel on the same day.

 

[Zimmanski]

You're weather loach and goldfish both have larger tank requirements and they also have different temperature requirements. Goldfish are cold water fish and loaches prefer more tropical temps. The ammonia being produced by all these fish and cramped space is likely the cause of the deaths you had and then being kept in bowls could also have contributed to the stress. Glad you were kind enough to try and rescue a pet from an uncaring owner but that could have thrown things overboard. Goldfish have a tank requirement of 20 gallons for the first and 10 more gallons for every additional goldfish in the tank and I believe their preferred temps are around 68F. Weather loaches get very big as well. You should check out liveaquaria.com, they have a fairly large list of fish on the website and are usually accurate in describing their requirements, also check out aqadvisor.com and put in all your tank info into it and it will tell you a good estimate on tank stocking levels, filtration capacity, tank mate suitability and maintenance routine. Good luck and welcome to AA!

Edit: actually just double checked a couple resources and it is said that weather loaches can withstand temps from 50 to 77F, sorry about that. They do reach 10 inches though so still not a good choice

 

[FishCr8zy]

What is the average temp?
Do u have a heater?

 

[FishCr8zy]

You're weather loach and goldfish both have larger tank requirements and they also have different temperature requirements. Goldfish are cold water fish and loaches prefer more tropical temps. The ammonia being produced by all these fish and cramped space is likely the cause of the deaths you had and then being kept in bowls could also have contributed to the stress. Glad you were kind enough to try and rescue a pet from an uncaring owner but that could have thrown things overboard. Goldfish have a tank requirement of 20 gallons for the first and 10 more gallons for every additional goldfish in the tank and I believe their preferred temps are around 68F. Weather loaches get very big as well. You should check out liveaquaria.com, they have a fairly large list of fish on the website and are usually accurate in describing their requirements, also check out aqadvisor.com and put in all your tank info into it and it will tell you a good estimate on tank stocking levels, filtration capacity, tank mate suitability and maintenance routine. Good luck and welcome to AA!

Yes I agree. They need different temps. I keep goldfish in my backyard pond and they thrive in there. Also, bowls r definitely way too small for goldfish to be kept in which causes stress and eventually, death.

 

[Jantaris]

I'm wondering... would he be best, then, to do a fish-in cycle at this point??? Get the fish out of the bowl and into the tank? Yes, needs a bigger tank, etc, but if that can't happen in the immediate future, is best course to put the fish in the tank?
Thanks for jumping in and giving more thought as I just saw no one responded to his question from yesterday and wanted to bump it so it didn't get lost.

 

[FishCr8zy]

Yes. I think u should put the fish back into the tank when u have cleaned it out. Keeping the goldfish in a bowl will
Increase the chance of them death chance.
R u keeping the loaches in a holding bowl too?

 

[Jantaris]

"I'd love to know what I'm doing wrong, because all I want is what everyone else seems to have, that crystal clear tank with nice healthy and interesting fish."

I wanted to add, Younger94, that all of us have been through trying times with our tanks and, well, we all started somewhere. It takes time and patience but it'll happen, so don't get discouraged. And we're all still figuring things as we go and face new challenges, too. I know I am! Best thing you can possibly do is research and ask questions, and then research some more. I hope we've helped. Best...

 

[Younger94]

As it stands right now, all fish are in my tank. This accounts for the two loaches and the last fancy goldfish. The tank is now showing very clear water, after cycling and the all readings given to me by my test kit show very low scores on nitrates/ammonia etc, so this now seems fine? The original question of how long I cycled my tank for two full weeks before adding fish (a nightmare for the child in me!) and everything seemed fine then.

I will point out the bowls I have, were only meant to be used as a method of putting water into when I was cleaning the tank/water change, but came in handy as I tried to sort out the tank. I try to keep to a schedule of water changes, doing around 20% each time I do, using a gravel cleaner. This I attempt to do every four or so days, but being on shift work at the moment, sometimes it is slightly longer or shorter (max a day or two). I've rechecked the filter, but for the life of me I can't remember the name now. A something 'mini', it stays underwater and it says its big enough for my tank and a half. I also said I'd had my old one going, but I've since taken that out due to it not working properly.

I realise the size thing with the fish btw, I already have a local fish pond that is ready to take them when they're big enough. The loaches however I want to stay with me, but it is my intention that as soon as I have enough money to buy a large proper display tank, however I'm nervous about doing it, until I know I can this right. For my and my wallets sake, but primarily for the fish!

 

[Younger94]

I however just noticed that my goldfish is looking rather pale on one side? He's happily swimming and often comes over and watches me. No loss of appetite either.

 

[Zimmanski]

By very low scores on nitrate/ammonia ect what exactly do you mean? Anything over a solid 0 for nitrite and ammonia can be deadly to fish. A cycled tank will read 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and some nitrates. What exactly are you water tests showing?

 

[pankelephant]

You said you cycled the tank for two weeks - how, exactly?

Two weeks is an exceptionally short amount of time for a fishless cycle.

 

[Stefernini]

I have just recently took in some unwanted/uncared for goldfish myself and have been furiously educating myself on their care.

This is what I have learned:

You need a minimum of 20 gallons for one fancy. You need an additional 10 gallons for each additional fancy. Any goldfish other than fancies, really should be in ponds. So for three goldies, you should have no less than a 40 gallon tank.

As for filtration, you should be looking at gallons per hour water movement, rather than tank size, on the filter. Goldfish need a minimum of 10 times the tank size in water movement for proper filtration and that crystal clear look. So for a 20 gallon, you need a filter that moves 200 gallons per hour. (on my 55 gallon I have two filters that move 300 gph each)

There really aren't any other fish you can properly keep with goldfish as they are a cold water fish and pretty much everything else is tropical. Keeping them together will shorten the life of one of them.

This is what I already knew before getting my goldies: You should be testing the water regularly with a liquid test kit and there should be no ammonia or nitrites at all, and nitrates should be kept around or under 10 ppm. Regular water changes are a must, as they get rid of the nitrates and replenish buffers in the tank. Filter media should be rinsed in tank water once a month or so to prevent clogging, and only replaced when it starts falling apart. I stuff some of the old media in behind the new as well so it will seed the new media and prevent a mini cycle.

I've never heard of a new tank cycling in two weeks without being seeded from an established tank, what were your methods for cycling it? There is loads of info in this forum's side bar on cycling and maintenance that is very helpful.

 

[Younger94]

Apologies first and foremost, as I said I work shifts and due to a busy work load, I've been pretty much getting in, sorting the fish and going to bed.

Updates on the fish -

I can't remember if I said, but due to a death I am left with one Fancy and two loaches. All three fish are in my main tank, looking happy, My loaches are playing with each other (if I'm right I've sexed them as a male and female), whilst having moved where the bubbles come through from my air pump, has left my fancy having fun swimming through them. The water is now clear (literally this second performed another 10% water change) and showing 0 for nitrate and ammonia. Lovely. Looks like (touch wood, pray I dont see a black cat) that my tank cycled through properly whilst the fish were out.

The filter is a Fluval Mini Underwater Filter, which says a flow rate of 200 Litres Per Hour. The level of water in my tank is just under 40 litres.
Now as for the questions over how I cycled my tank.
I've done it twice, plus a partial one (I'll explain what I mean by that in a second)
The first cycle, was when I first received my tank. A new filter in a new tank, and was left I think for about two weeks, later found out this was most likely not enough. By the second time, I had already brought my current filter. With fresh water in there, I set my original and current filter going, using the bacterial in them from the old tank. Now this was over a period of two and a bit weeks.

Now the partial cycle, was when I had to remove my fish and place them in what essentially were holding bowls, which was not ideal for me and certainly not for them. At this point I had one filter (my Mini) running. I did this for about a week, this was to ensure that the water tests showed that the water was correct for fish to be reintroduced.

Now I realise I'm a complete newbie at this and I've already learnt alot from my mistakes (and I know I've made a few!). I am going to keep the same fish stock level in the tank and will look to another filter (the same model) when I get paid.

 

[Zimmanski]

From what I could tell they were probably all 3 partial cycles. Without a constant source of ammonia you won't be able to completely cycle a tank. If you have ammonia, then remove the source of the ammonia, whatever small colony of BB you have will process that ammonia and then start to slowly die off, and then you're back to square one once you add back your fish and start producing ammonia again it will rise. Clear water means nothing when you're talking about cycled or not

 

[pankelephant]

The first cycle, was when I first received my tank. A new filter in a new tank, and was left I think for about two weeks, later found out this was most likely not enough. By the second time, I had already brought my current filter. With fresh water in there, I set my original and current filter going, using the bacterial in them from the old tank. Now this was over a period of two and a bit weeks.

Now the partial cycle, was when I had to remove my fish and place them in what essentially were holding bowls, which was not ideal for me and certainly not for them. At this point I had one filter (my Mini) running. I did this for about a week, this was to ensure that the water tests showed that the water was correct for fish to be reintroduced.

Letting your filter run in an empty tank is not cycling. You had nothing in there at all to begin the process.

Zimmanski is right - you must have a constant source of ammonia for the bacteria to grow and thrive. Fish-less cycling means you're adding ammonia to the water to keep the process going. Cycling with fish in means you're allowing the fish waste to provide that ammonia. Either way, without ammonia, the bacteria either die or don't grow in the first place.

The only way to make this work now that you have fish is to test the water daily and be prepared to do frequent water changes to keep your fish safe until the cycling process completes. Sorry, I know that's not what you wanted to hear.

 

[absolutangel04]

Everybody, please try to stay on the original topic of helping the OP. OT posts have been removed. Thanks.

 

[henningc]

Just a thought or two. I agree with the information supplied by the others. I would get a small mesh carbon sack and place it where the filter air / water flow hits it. That should take care of any chemical issues. You need to research a bit on the loaches, but the gold fish need salt. Pure salt , Solor Salt, works fine or you can pay a lot for aquarium salt. I'm not sure how much salt the laoches can withstand. If you're heating the tank STOP. All of the fish can handle room temp. Last, slow down the feeding and make sure you are using good quality food. I use Ocean Nutrition. Pellet and sinking food is way too dirty for such a small tank.

If you're going to get a bigger tank, figure out the fish you want and plan the purchase that way. A 30gal long with a power filter, sponge filter and small carbon filter would work wonders. A 55gal would work fine for up to 5 medium size goldfish.