New goldfish aquarium

[Penjet]

I have a 20 long tank with an aquaclear 50g mounted on the side. I have a narrow 18 inch airstone along the back wall. I started the tank around 4/12, and am still in 'break in cycle' i soppose.
1fantail and 1 shubunkin( both under 2")

I noticed a lot of folks do not use the carbon in their AC. Is it adviseable to not use carbon? Even with goldies and/or during the initial cycle period?

Also, can the filter floss replacement others have mentioned be used with fancy goldies?

Is it ok to shut off the AC filter at all during the initial cycle? To rinse the sponge at all during the initial?

When should I ( if ever) do my first full tank waterchange?

Sooomany questions. Thanks.

 

[jlk]

Welcome to AA!! We will try to answer some of your questions- feel free to ask more! I will also post some links below with more information. First, do you have a good liquid test kit such as the API fw master test kit? This will be a must as your are just beginning a fish-in cycle. A good water conditioner such as Prime will help to detox ammonia and nitrite as well. In respect to water changes (wc), you should be doing them daily right now based on your toxin levels (50% at a time) with temperature matched, properly conditioned water.

In respect to your filter, it needs to run 24/7 except for doing wcs when it can be temporarily turned off to prevent the motor from burning out from lack of water. I would not touch the filter media until the tank is fully cycled then just simply swish it around in some used tank water. Filter floss (polyfill) can be added anytime for additional filter media and perfectly fine to use. Carbon use is personal choice (and expense). Its simply not necessary for healthy fw tank to function and has zero affect on the cycling process.

I would recommend returning the shubunkin unless you have plans for a much larger tank or pond in the near future. The fantail fully stocks a 20g. Shubunkins grow quite large and more suited to pond environments. With these two guys in a 20, toxins will be difficult to control as goldfish are messy fish with a hefty bioload (ammonia production). Heres some more information that should help as well!

I just learned about cycling but I already have fish. What now?! - Aquarium Advice

http://www.myaquariumclub.com/goldfish-101-11174823.html

 

[SKB]

to the forum! I agree with was is said above. I also have some links as my signature that'll help you learn more about your new aqua hobby, just click the link that follows: "freshwater newbie? click this:"

You've come to the right place!

 

[VOXGM]

Gold fish produce a lot of waste. Carbon is only good for removing meds or smelly water. I personally don't use carbon much. Get yourself a test kit, prime, and a bottle of API quick start to have as an emergency. 1 goldfish per 20 gallons is wHat I would suggest

 

[Penjet]

WARNING--THIS IS A LONG POST.I realize my post was not very complete. I want to add some info, so I don't look quite AS foolish as I am

Ok- so first tank was a 5g that we got as a gift around Christmas time. It came with the Whisper 10 filter, lighted lid (typical kit for kids). We had the certificate for the goldfish, and it turned out to be a calico Shubunkin (about 1.5 in when we got him)--thought it was typical calico feeder in our foolish days.

My wife changed the tank water at least twice a week, 50%. It had gravel, and not much else. Fish had some rough spots (Jan, Feb) but with her maintenance (luckily since I had done NO research at the time) thrived. Limited feedings twice a day to flakes, and it grew to over 1.5, getting closer to 2 now,

In March, wanted to get a bigger tank (again...did this blind and selected tank based on space in house). We got the 20 gal long. Because of the way the stand fit in house, the Aquaclear 50 filter is mounted on the right short side. Added the conditioner, and let the tank run a day or two before adding the new fish: a fantail that is about 1.5 in.

Decided to add the shubukin to the fantail tank. This would be sometime around April 12 I think. Started to read up a bit more. Started to spend money a bit more. Got REALLY attached to the fish. Noticed the typical "break in" tank readings (heck...started taking readings). Nitrites were high, everything else was fine. {We are now where we probably should have been as responsible owners at the onset. Looking at forums, reading up, and BUYING $tuff.}

The fish seemed to be best friends.The wife loves 'em both. The kids love them both. We now know "feeder" is a calico shubunkin. We are emotionally attached to them.

{at this point in the story, we now become the "crazy cat people" of fish}

So...you ask yourself what could possibly happen now to make us look worse in the eyes of the goldfish nation..guess what... a teeny little black moor named guster. The kids are in love with him.

At first, we drag out the 5 gal and put Guster in. Cute as all get-out, and plucky.

We did the unthinkable, and put Guster into the tank with the others (3 fish, about 4.5 linear inches of fish...all tiny now, but no doubt polluting their water. Overstocked...i.e. the "cat people" of fish. I realize we deserve the lectures...but if you could only see them schooling together.

SO NOW...CHANGES...

We are overstocked a lot (a new acquaintance told us it can be done during the cycling while they are small, and warned us not to get too attached to any of them --too late now).

They appear healthy to the eye. No problems with their swimming. Eating OK.

We have about a half inch of gravel (some from the original Shubunkin tank from Dec.) There are three river rocks in the bottom. There is a small Java fern at the urging of a salesperson (they don't touch it).

We put a "zeolite" bag in the Aquaclear 50 (sales recommendation). We added the Whisper 10 from the original tank to the left of this tank. Daily 30-40% water changes.

SO HERE IS MY CURRENT QUESTION:
My tank readings (about week 4): water is clear
pH8 * nitrite 5 * ammonia 0-.25 * NITRATE 0!

1) What gives? The nitrites are higher, the ammonia is LOW, and the NITRATES dropped to 0! Shouldn't the nitrates be rising (and NOT dropping) and the nitrites be eventually dropping. Even with the zeolite, shouldn't there be some Ammonia?

2) Overstocked, but the fish are currently small. What size should a second filtration unit be? (I guess currently 90 gph + 200 gph) The Aquaclear is using sponge, zeolite, and ceramic bio bag.

 

[jlk]

Good job investing in a test kit! Priority right now is dropping your nitrite level asap. This will take back to back 50% wcs with temperature matched, properly conditioned water. You need to bring the nitrite level down to .25ppm or less and keep it controlled with a hefty wc schedule.

Your guys should be very interested in food and scavenging for more 24/7- eating just 'ok' or not all indicates the toxin level is severe without even testing the water. Nitrites affect fish at a cellular level by inhibiting their ability to acquire oxygen. Although the symptoms may not be readily apparent right now, the affects will be longterm so it needs to be addressed immediately.

Adding another filter will increase filtration but it will not compensate for lack of water and space in heavily overstocked tank. Unfortunately, you will be facing constant wcs until this situation can be figured out. Water quality issues will increase as they grow as well. The zeolite is likely band-aiding things a bit or your numbers would likely be even more severe. Please read the links above if you have not already and ask more questions! We want you to have happy, healthy fish!!

 

[Penjet]

Followups

I want to thank everyone. Great resource for us.

So to respond on their feeding habits:
yes...they eat the food all the time when fed. They seem to get very competitive about food with eachother. We used the flakes and the slow-sink tiny pellets about 3x a day.

I also tried a broccoli on a long skewer and a mushed skinned pea, and they seem to go after it for a while, sort of pulling off of it, and after about 5 minutes come back occasionally, then stop, then come back in 5 minutes, etc.... so I remove it after 5-10 minutes. My wife thinks it makes the water smell a bit if we leave overnight.

I tried a bit of skinned tangerine once or twice, but was worried it would effect water quality (acid) after more than 5 minutes, so I take it out.

On the LEVELS of the water
seems like we are going to be stuck for a while in the phase where the nitrites are still high (>4), and Nitrates and Ammonia very low (0 to <.25). That's right after a 50% water change (again--about a month in).
JLK mentioned back-to-back 50%--so does this mean right after a water change, change again immediately, or is there some implied time to wait between them. Should this be daily (we've upped from every 2 days to every day 50%wc)

After reading the last set of JLK links, I am worried that over time Shubuking (Shubunkin) will have to go. He seems to be faster, a bit more aggressive, and grow a bit quicker than moor and fantail. Is that consensus?
This will be a crazily unpopular idea in the house

 

[jlk]

Yes, wcs (multiple) daily until you can bring your nitrites under control. You can space them out over the course of a day or over the course of a few hours. 50% daily is not going to cut it when your levels are this high.

Are you using Prime or Amquel Plus as your conditioner? If not, switch ASAP to try and limit the damage from toxic nitrite levels. Prime detoxes nitrite up to 1ppm (this is considered high) but can be dosed up to 5x dose in an emergency. It will not change the need though for lots of immediate wcs to actually remove nitrite.

In respect to the shubunkin, have you considered building a pond? Otherwise, I would recommend finding him a happy pond home.

 

[Sharpchick]

JLK has given you excellent advice. It's a good season to see about a pond for your shubunkin, and mom and the kids could help with that.

On the fresh veggies and fruits - I leave veggies for 24 hours (put them in the tank in the morning and remove - if there are any left - the next morning for the new day's veggies).

I feed citrus on the day I do a water change. In the tank in the morning, out of the tank before changing water in the afternoon after I come home from work.

As your fish learn what veggies are, and can graze all day, you will find there's not much, if anything, to remove. But you have to offer them daily. Doing it sporadically makes them look at the veggie as if it's an alien.

Try some zucchini. I get two zucchini and Sunday is my blanching and freezing day. I make spears of one and a half of the zucchini (the remaining half becomes circles for my shrimp tank), blanch all in boiling water for about 3 minutes, cool rapidly under cold water, and then lay them out on a cookie sheet covered with wax paper. Into the freezer they go, and when frozen, they go into my freezer bowl covered. That way, each piece is frozen individually.

I feed 2 spears per day to my six goldfish in my pond. I take out the frozen spears, thaw them in a bowl with boiling water, and stick them on a stainless steel kabob skewer, piercing them from the backside. The skewer makes them sink.

By the time I get home from work, I can usually go fish my empty kabob skewer out of the pond.

 

[Penjet]

Followup (again)

Tank
We bought the Prime, and have treated the tank. We added a second HOB filter unit so I believe we are at 350 gph on the filtration on the 20 long. We have upped to 50% wc, twice daily at about 3 to 4 hour gap to let water sit to temp in 5 gal pails.

Fluval AP 50 has the zeolite in it on one side, Aqueon 30 does not on other. Aeration strip on the back wall is between.

The numbers will hopefully drop even more.

Behavior
The fish are hungry and visually seem ok. Shubunkin seems to spend a lot of time vertical ("headstanding" along gravel as kids call it) picking the rocks for food and lately seems to be bumping the fantail's rear a lot. He will zip across the tank and seem to sort of ram or nip at the the other two (at least thats what it looks like). They do not seem to have any damage to their fins or bodies. The moor is plucky and tiniest, and seems to prefer swimming near the top when not combing gravel. Does all this sound right?

 

[Penjet]

Prime...wow!!! + question

WOW!
One dosing with the Seachem Prime, and two water changes...all I can say is WOW!
pH: 8 (static)
Ammonia: between 0 - 0.25 (similar, perhaps slight rise)
Nitrite: 0.25 (dropped significantly)
Nitrate: <5ppm (slight rise)

My New question:
is this stuff only to be used remedially, or is this to be used regularly for water changes? We had been using the water treatments by Aqueon, API, and Tetra.

 

[jlk]

That's a great improvement in your numbers! Prime is a complete water conditioner- no need for any of the other products and yes it should be used with every wc.

In respect to the shubunkin chasing and nipping, it's aggression from lack of sufficient space and an overcrowded tank.

 

[germanyt]

I have a 20 long tank with an aquaclear 50g mounted on the side. I have a narrow 18 inch airstone along the back wall. I started the tank around 4/12, and am still in 'break in cycle' i soppose.
1fantail and 1 shubunkin( both under 2")

I noticed a lot of folks do not use the carbon in their AC. Is it adviseable to not use carbon? Even with goldies and/or during the initial cycle period?

Also, can the filter floss replacement others have mentioned be used with fancy goldies?

Is it ok to shut off the AC filter at all during the initial cycle? To rinse the sponge at all during the initial?

When should I ( if ever) do my first full tank waterchange?

Sooomany questions. Thanks.

Lots of long answers for a simple question. Use the carbon, it won't hurt. Leave the filter running non stop. Rinse the sponge with tank water when you do water changes. Start from the first week doing 50% water changes each week.

 

[germanyt]

WOW!
One dosing with the Seachem Prime, and two water changes...all I can say is WOW!
pH: 8 (static)
Ammonia: between 0 - 0.25 (similar, perhaps slight rise)
Nitrite: 0.25 (dropped significantly)
Nitrate: <5ppm (slight rise)

My New question:
is this stuff only to be used remedially, or is this to be used regularly for water changes? We had been using the water treatments by Aqueon, API, and Tetra.

Once the tank is cycled you will be able to control nitrate with water changes. Regular conditioner/dechlorinator is all you will need. A cycled tank will read 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites.

 

[Penjet]

Update

Been very busy, but since last posting we have removed the Shubunkin (there was much sadness, he's pretty impressive).

So we dropped down to the small fantail and the small moor.

Still have the two filters (AQ 50 gal and the Aqueon 20g), air stone along back wall, reduced amount of gravel, and the single Java Fern anchored to a river rock.

With the PRIME, there was an instant change in the water quality (see previous) numbers.

Since removing the Shubunkin, I thought the readings would get better. They seem to be getting worse again.

pH: 8.2 (tap seems to change though a bit too seasonally after spring thaw)
Nitrate: (up a bit) .5 ppm
Nitrates: (down again) to 0
Ammonia: .25

I have not touched either filter.

Any ideas?

 

[jlk]

With a tank that is not cycled yet, it's common to see fluctuations in parameters. Just stay on top of your testing and water changes and have some patience.

 

[Penjet]

Followup (final?)

I felt the need to post this followup for anyone who may have stumbled on my initial posts (and thank all of those who've offered encouragement and advice)!

It's about two months into the start of my tank. I had major issues getting it 'cycled' initially, but have been told two months isn't extraordinarily long.

• Used the PRIME regularly with 70% water changes daily at the beginning, 50% after a week or two in, and after about a month every two days, then every three (and in honesty missed at least a few here and there).
• Initially used the Zeolite pack, but removed it and added a second sponge to the Aquaclear, and did not replace the filter in the second Aqueon HOB (just rinsed it in aquarium water every 4 weeks). This seemed to push a major improvement by the way. Could Zeolite have delayed cycling?
• Numbers are now stable, but took two months to get there!
  0 nitrites
  negligible (close to 0) ammonia
  negigible (very close to 0) nitrates