Newbie Native Tank Questions

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Blue_trillo

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
33
Ok so I decided to start an aquarium, never had one, but an ex had left a 50gal tank in my basement and I live next to a lake.... you can see where this is going.

I know almost nothing (have done some light reading online) about keeping fish. I did check the legality on the below mentioned fish for my locality and I am fine there.

Attempt #1 - Transferred 15 assorted sunfish ranging between 2 inches and 4 inches to the tank. Treated tap water, 375 gph canister filter, bacterial start bottle that claimed, "You can add fish immediately".

Massive error, water was not getting oxygenated nearly enough, lost 9 fish (all the bluegill) overnight. There were 3 green sunfish, and 3 other sunfish (not sure if red breasted or long ear or hybrid) that survived and seem to be fine now.


Attempt #2 - Put in a 175 gph aerating powerhead and a generic 12inch long bubble stone. Went out and acquired more fish, added back about 5 bluegill, 1 green sunfish, and 2 black crappie (one 9", the other 6"). This setup seemed to be going ok for 2 days, not much aggression noted between fish, no gasping for air. A couple sunfish seemed interested in some pondfish pellets I found at Petco but they mostly spit them back out. On day 3, I noticed the large black crappie being weird. It was swimming towards the top and then swimming on its side along the surface a foot or so before going back down. Then I saw one of the green sunfish doing the same thing.

So I looked up the most common problems in a new tank and decided to do a 30% water replacement. That has stopped the sideways swimming and the fish went back to playing in the powerhead output.


So on to the questions!


  1. Are there too many fish in there right now? 14 fish: 2 crappie, 4 green sunfish, 3 unknown sunfish, and 5 bluegill. I think later when they grow the answer is an obvious yes but I aimed high anticipating a high loss rate from the capture/transfer process.
  2. Assuming the above answer is yes, what would be the best combination to keep that includes the crappie (I like them best)? I hear sunfish can be aggressive depending on gender and circumstances.
  3. Is overstocking to lower aggression a real thing ? If so does that change the above answers much ?
 
Word of caution, 50 gallons is not big enough for any of those fish!
There are some sunfish that can be raised in an aquarium, but they're dwarf species and not found commonly in local lakes in much quantity.

If you're going to keep sunfish, research black banded sunfish (get 3 in. Max) and pygmy sunfish.
Florida flag fish and least killifish are also native species that can be kept.

Research the nitrogen cycle, your aquarium's going through one now trying to build up bacteria to process ammonia (fish waste) to a non-toxic form. No amount of oxygen will overcome this, you're probably gonna lose more fish.

Would recommend turning them loose and research the native species you can keep while waiting for your tank to cycle (about a 1 1/2 to 2month process).

Looked into keeping native fish in my 75 gallon tank, it can be done but would probably only be 3-4? of the 3" sunfish tops.

Least killifish and pygmy sunfish are smaller, you could keep a bunch of those.
 
Google zimmermans fish and Jonah's aquarium for information about native species. If you can find the information to identify them you could catch your own but the species suitable for aquarium's are found in South, I'm in north[emoji20] gonna have to buy mine online.
 
Thank you both very much for the helpful advice.

Research the nitrogen cycle, your aquarium's going through one now trying to build up bacteria to process ammonia (fish waste) to a non-toxic form. No amount of oxygen will overcome this, you're probably gonna lose more fish.

The Nitro cycle is the reason I did the 30% water swap yesterday. Reading a bit suggested 20-30% a day until testing indicates its cycled. I wish I would have started a month ago. :ermm: As to the quantity in the tank yeah I think it would be best to return most of the fish. I did see in the information provided by the other fellow (Jonah's Aquarium) that that size tank should be ok for 1-3 large sunfish, with best result likely being 1 of each species to avoid the gang up.

Google zimmermans fish and Jonah's aquarium for information about native species.
Zimmerman's didn't seem to have much useful info honestly unless I missed it but Jonah was pretty nice, especially the Compatibility and Feeding of North American Native Fishes in Aquaria which gives me a bit of hope for this project.


So here is my revised plan for now....

  • Remove all but the 2 crappie and 1 green sunfish (who I love the personality of, it plays in the bubbles a bunch and seems very interested in me as I walk around the house) They seem to be staying apart and supposedly can coexist from some anecdotal posts I have seen online.
  • Continue 30% water change a day until my testing kit arrives (very rural) then aim for ammonia .25ppm and .50ppm via water change per some cycling guides I found until it levels back to 0 without water change daily.
 
Are you treating the water, if you use seachem Prime it will detoxify ammonia and nitrites while cycling in addition to conditioning the water. Prime only detoxifies part of it, and it will still show up when you test even though no longer toxic. That's why I would change water anytime ammonia or nitrites are present.

Your going to have a hard time keeping water conditions acceptable with those fish even after you cycle. [emoji6]

Good luck!
 
I have some prime that is suppose to arrive today.

The release is done, 10 fish released one little green sunfish mysteriously missing... I suspect the big crappie. :angel:
 
What species do you know are present in the lake? Maybe we could name some that would do better long term.
 
Lets see, the lake has:

  • Sunfish: green, bluegill, red breasted, red ear, pumpkinseed
  • Crappie: white and black
  • Bass: large and smallmouth
  • Perch: yellow and white
  • Catfish: channel, flathead, and blue
  • Longnose Gar
  • Gizzard shad
  • Minnows: 40 something species
Tank Update: The two (little one reappeared) green sunfish both ate some night crawlers, and the smaller crappie made an attempt at one but missed and then wondered off, the larger crappie just stared at me and did not eat. They were all caught on night crawlers so maybe he is a bit wary of that as a food item now.

I did a 30% water replacement and dosed with Prime (how long does it work for? the bottle didn't say). I also added some mystery snails and I am planning to add a couple feeder minnows this afternoon to try and get the crappie eating.
 
Seachem says 24-48 hrs., but one member on here has a blind fish from ammonia poisoning and many say dose every 24hrs.

I suspect the not eating is due to overcrowding and ammonia buildup, did you get your test kit yet?
Are they showing any other odd behavior?
As I previously stated I'm afraid you may have more issues down the road from keeping these species. Those fish are producing a lot of waste and if you don't get it out (other than a small% for feeding the cycle) a little bit here + a little bit next time and so on will lead to big problems.
 
... did you get your test kit yet?
Are they showing any other odd behavior?

Test kit should arrive today. No oddity noted, the green sunfish are alternating between playing in the powerhead stream and investigating the snails. The crappie are both lurking under the fake log I have in there, which I understand to be what crappie spend most of their lives doing.

I will post the testing results once completed.


A few things I have been reading
http://www.wikihow.com/Keep-Crappie-in-an-Aquarium
 
... did you get your test kit yet?
Are they showing any other odd behavior?

The testing kit is due today. I will post its result.

As to other odd behavior, nope nothing noted. The crappie are lurking under the fake branch I have in there, which I understanding is what they like to do. The green sunfish are alternating between investigating the new snails and playing in the powerhead output.

A few things I have been reading:
Making Sense of Crappie Behavior - In-Fisherman
How to Keep Crappie in an Aquarium: 12 Steps (with Pictures)
 
:ermm: Forum is being weird, might multipost....

Anyways kit is set to arrive today and I will post its result.

No other odd behaviors noted.
 
Adding the feeder minnows was like a match on gasoline :dance:

Big crappie ate 3 within seconds and just screamed around the tank knocking snails loose and decorations over during his chases. The little crappie got at least 2 and the big green sunfish crammed himself full until his mouth wouldn't close. It is kinda funny though with the crappie still not wanted the night crawlers despite that being what I caught them on in the first place.

Got some crickets too ... not gonna bother putting them in yet though.

Added a couple pictures, the one with the two crappie also features 2 bluegill that are now back in the lake.
 

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Test kit arrived.

This is after a 25% water replacement about 3 hours ago.

Ammonia 1.5
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 0.0

Double Prime has been used. They said, "The standard dose of Prime (5mL per 50 gallons of water or 2 drops per 1 gallon of water) will only detoxify up to 1ppm ammonia. "

I am aiming for 2x 30% pwc daily from here until things change, that should yield 51% new water a day.
 
1.5 ppm ammonia is extremely toxic, that's why I expressed concern earlier. Keep up the double Prime doses and change as much water as you can. I would change 50%+ untill you can get that ammonia under 0.5, because your tank is still cycling. During a cycle ammonia spikes (or is added manually) to 4ppm usually, but during a fish-in cycle can spike to 6-8+ and you have some massive contributors of waste to the bioload.

This is why I suggested freeing them and researching the black banded sunfish while you did a fishless cycle. Good luck but it won't take anything but a slight, sudden increase to cause ammonia poisoning.

Keep testing, but even when done cycling, and it could take longer and be extremely difficult with your bioload, the biological bacteria will need to increase to keep up as your fish grow and a spike could wipe out all your fish.

I'm hoping you succeed, but very skeptical, will follow and help if you keep going.[emoji27]
 
They are cool by the way, that's why I have black banded sunfish on my bucket list. Extremely cool for a outdoorsman and aquarist to keep because they spawn in nests in an aquarium like in nature.
It would be like living in a lake. Lol[emoji41]
 
Morning Check:

Ammonia 3.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 5.0 <--- I had my wife double check me, is that odd ?
 
That's exactly what I cautioned you about, it's only gonna get worse.

If 1ppm ammonia is toxic what's 3. Do a massive water change and dose with prime. Water change should be proprtionaly related to the amount of ammonia you remove. So at 3ppm I'd do a 75% change and dose with prime or your fish will get ammonia poisoning in the near future.
 
Did 51% water change yesterday evening and measured 4ppm ammonia before the change. I also added a bacterial starter pack, marineland brand. Re-primed after the water change.

This morning, I removed the smaller of the black crappie for being a jerk and trying to claim pretty much all of the tank as his turf other than wherever the big crappie was at the moment. So down to 3 fish now, the 9" crappie, 4" green sunfish, 2" green sunfish. Fish are all eating good, 15x 1" feeder minnows were eaten yesterday, and this morning the big crappie took a whole nightcrawler and the sunfish split another one. No odd behaviors noted. The bigger greenie has started making himself a shallow bowl to hang out in.

Morning Check:
Ammonia 2.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate little darker than 5.0, maybe 7-8


64% water change planned for today. (2x 20gal.)
 
I would suggest releasing the fish so the tank can cycle. Then I myself would put in pumpkinseeds because they are pretty colorful and don't get nearly as big as the bluegill/crappie.
 
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