Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > Saltwater and Reef > Saltwater & Reef - Getting Started
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 06-21-2006, 03:40 AM   #11
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: So California
Posts: 209
Quote:
Would starting with uncured sand and rocks be a problem?.....I'll assume the cycle will tank longer(not an issue for me),but are there any other issues to consider?Once its all in and the water is testing well,just start a fishless cycle or am I missing something here as well?
I don't think that it would be a problem. it will just take longer. I have never cycled a tank using uncured live rock, so I don't know how long it would take, but I think it would be facinating to watch.

Good luck.

John
__________________

__________________
60gal reef in progress
75lbs Live Rock
40lbs Live Rock
AquaC Remora Protein Skimmer
Marineland penguin HOB Filter
4x65w PCF

FISH
1 - Percula, 1 - Blue-Yellowtail Damsel, 3 - Green reef Chromis

Inverts
Rose Annenome; Anchor Coral
john0087 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2006, 10:45 AM   #12
AA Team Emeritus
 
roka64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 13,860
Send a message via AIM to roka64 Send a message via Yahoo to roka64
Quote:
The above quotes say about $250 in live rock alone.....wow.
Yeah, it can get a little on the expensive side. I started with about 30LBs of LR and added more as I saw pieces I liked at my LFS, which sells it for $8/LBs....

Quote:
I'm truely lost on how enough live rock can eliminate any real machanical filtration
LR helps with the bio filtration. It hosts the good bacteria. The more surface space (ie porous less dense) the more bacteria can grow. The more rock you have, the less filter media you will need. There are some that run their filters with no sponges or media, except maybe some carbon. The LR, if enough is in the tank (I think it is about 1.5LBs per gallon), you won't need the media or sponges, along with a good clean up crew.

I believe the mech filtration is the pump, where you can add media like carbon, for clear water, or other things.

Quote:
If so then no doubt the bacteria is not the same as freshwater.
Correct.

Quote:
Would starting with uncured sand and rocks be a problem?
Nope, it is cheaper, but will just take a little longer to cycle.

Quote:
Once its all in and the water is testing well,just start a fishless cycle or am I missing something here as well?
Nope, unless some one else has more advice. I think you have asked excellent and well informed questions.

Keep us updated and post some pics, so we can enjoy it with you!

PS, If I got something incorrect, please feel free to step in and correct me.
__________________

__________________
Age is relative, you are only as old as you act....of course, this works in reverse....

Questions loved, heeded advice greatly appreciated!

Vote for AA
Good reading about:
Nitrogen Cycle
Fishless Cycling
Need more help?
Articles
Acronym List

--Scott
roka64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2006, 11:13 AM   #13
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 801
Send a message via AIM to FishFrik
Quote:
Once its all in and the water is testing well,just start a fishless cycle or am I missing something here as well?
You don't need to test the water "before" the cycle

BTW. I had alot of fun doing my 29G. Good luck to u
__________________
I'm one of those fishnutz, who are actually nutz.
FishFrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2006, 11:48 AM   #14
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 224
Quote:

Quote:
Would starting with uncured sand and rocks be a problem?
Nope, it is cheaper, but will just take a little longer to cycle.
I believe this might be a point of confusion. I would say there are three classes of rock for the purposes of this discussion.

Dry rock (as in from www.hirocks.com): this rock has no life on it when it arrives at your door (which is why it is so much cheaper than the other prices you have seen). It is porous and very well suited to house life, but it will need to be seeded from some other source.

Uncured live rock: this rock is currently housing living organisms--hence the name live rock. This can include various types of bacteria, algae, worms, crabs, small crustaceans, .... However, once live rock is pulled from the ocean, it often sits out of water for some time and some of these organisms will die, which will produce ammonia (as in a fishless cycle). It is not uncommon to use this sort of rock to cycle a tank with as this "die off" will take the place of the cocktail shrimp that is typically added. Within a couple of weeks, the die off will be consumed and you now have

Cured live rock: this has been through the "curing" process in which all that has died on or within the rock has decomposed. It can be added to your tank with no ammonia spike and if used in a new tank, it can possibly provide a near instantaneous cycle.

In terms of cost, cured is considerably more than uncured which is considerably more than dry. In terms of starting out, there is not much benefit to using live sand--it can shorten the cycle, but as said before, your sand will become live over time. You can save quite a bit, by dividing your rock between dry and live. The dry will gradually become live over time. You will want at least some live rock (even if only a couple of pieces) to seed it with bacteria and other organisms initially.

As for the nitrate to gas question, deep within the rock, it can house anaerobic bacteria which uses nitrate as its oxygen source. In so doing, it is converted to gas--very cool! As far as the idea of going without a traditional filter, you can think of it this way. The rock is the bio media that you would have in your HOB or canister. The pumps within the tank circulate the water around this media, taking you through the nitrogen cycle.

Hope that helps,
Chris
__________________
cplawrence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2006, 12:03 PM   #15
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 820
Quote:
The LR, if enough is in the tank (I think it is about 1.5LBs per gallon), you won't need the media or sponges, along with a good clean up crew.
Ok cool....what I'd really like to gain is a better understanding of SW bacteria,if at all possible SW vs FW bacteria since thats my perspective....this has gotten a lot more interesting than I thought it might and I thought it would get pretty dam interesting.

Quote:
I think you have asked excellent and well informed questions.
Thanks for taking the time to key that in.Really....very cool ..thanks.

Quote:
You don't need to test the water "before" the cycle
Well some don't but I will lol...I was referencing both salanity and ph with that statement(as well as stuff I don't know to test for).In all honesty I had better figure out where I want the results to be before I start testing for them...I haven't gone that deep yet so I suppose I am posing another question.

Thanks for the good luck wish and pics are not an issue...I'll get em up,they will just be bad pics.
__________________
Fatz

90g SW FOWLR
50g tall fw planted at .6wpg
29g fw planted at 1.2 wpg
10g fw planted at 3 wpg cf
SCFatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2006, 12:21 PM   #16
AA Team Emeritus
 
roka64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 13,860
Send a message via AIM to roka64 Send a message via Yahoo to roka64
I think Chris did a great job explaining, in more depth, the things I kinda glossed over! Thanks Chris!

Quote:
You don't need to test the water "before" the cycle
I didn't have a test kit through my whole cycle, so I missed out on a LOT of what was going on. I think this kind of helped my ignorance of cycling a tank (I will be better prepared for the next one). I think it would have been interesting to see how things worked and I believe I would have learned a lot more.

Quote:
Well some don't but I will lol...I was referencing both salanity and ph with that statement.In all hosesty I had better figure out where I want them to be before I start testing.Opinions?
This will depend on what you want to keep. I am slowly reducing my salinity to 1.020. Some one suggested a few weeks ago, this lower salinity would be more health for the fish and possibly help keep parasites at a minimal. BUT, that is just what I am trying.
The range of pH can be low from 7.8 to 8.4, one important thing is keeping the pH stable. This is done by water "ripple" that causes good gas exchange. For example, I had a canopy cover and water "ripple" but could not get my pH higher than around 7.8. I upgraded my lighting to over the tank lighting and my pH bounced up to around 8.2 (it's still kind of hard to determine the exact color of purple on my test kit...at least to me). This is the same for your pre mixed water. You will want to try to get as close to your tank's parameters in pH, temp and salinity (although, this can be off, like I said, I am reducing my salinity for the above reason, so my salinity in my premixed water is slightly lower than in my tank). Whew, that was a long rant...
__________________
Age is relative, you are only as old as you act....of course, this works in reverse....

Questions loved, heeded advice greatly appreciated!

Vote for AA
Good reading about:
Nitrogen Cycle
Fishless Cycling
Need more help?
Articles
Acronym List

--Scott
roka64 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2006, 02:24 AM   #17
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 820
I can not begin to explain how impressed I am with the information in this thread.wow.

cplawrence,you should submit that post as an article explaining live rock to newbs.Excellent post!!
And had never before now considered the possablity of an anaerobic enviroment being benificial in SW.

And thank you too roka64.I'm getting there as far as my understanding goes thanks to your help and others.

I'm thinking some cured rock and some dry rock with dry sand.
With the bottom line in mind,what percentage of each would you start with?(cycle time is not the objective,but a healthy tank over time is)
__________________
Fatz

90g SW FOWLR
50g tall fw planted at .6wpg
29g fw planted at 1.2 wpg
10g fw planted at 3 wpg cf
SCFatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2006, 10:18 PM   #18
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 820
Alright..I've been giving this some thought and I'm stuck right in the middle of imaginary start up lol.

After I add dry sand,salt water,dry rock and at least some live rock....what next?Add a fish or two?Or wait for the dry rock to come around to live?What does the live rock need to stay live?Just water?

Also,how deep should the sand substrate be?

And I don't want start a saltwater gun fight or anything lol,but I found this posted in another thread concerning nitrates:
Quote:
LR will do nothing for your nitrates. It will do wonders for your ammonia and nitrites
This is quite contrary to what has been posted in this thread already.
Is this a point of controversy/discussion in the SW world?
__________________
Fatz

90g SW FOWLR
50g tall fw planted at .6wpg
29g fw planted at 1.2 wpg
10g fw planted at 3 wpg cf
SCFatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2006, 11:05 PM   #19
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Atl, GA
Posts: 382
Send a message via AIM to Feron Send a message via Yahoo to Feron
LR won't remove nitrates.. nitrates are removed via water changes, and reduced via proper husbandry (aka feeding just what you need to, keeping the tank clean).
The bacteria on LR will convert ammonia to nitrites to nitrates.

You shouldn't depend on LR to do all your filtration, at the very least have a skimmer present to remove dissolved wastes.

After you add sand, salt, dry rock and live rock...wait... perhaps add a uncooked supermarket shrimp to the tank... and test your water. You want Ammonia to show up, then nitrites to show up, then nitrates to show up... this shows that a good bacteria colony has started and is processing waste materials (either die off from your live rock, or the shrimp decaying, or both).

HTH
__________________
Feron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2006, 11:16 PM   #20
Aquarium Advice FINatic
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 820
So add it all and start a cycle.....This sounds just like fresh water actually.A concept I'm quite familier with as I have a few tanks already.

I guess I'm finding the fact that filter media tranfer will not aid in a SW tank (fw filter media) if the exact same method (shrimp) is used to achieve the bacteria in either one.

Does different bacteria develope because of the salt or is it the same and if its the same why would it not work?
__________________

__________________
Fatz

90g SW FOWLR
50g tall fw planted at .6wpg
29g fw planted at 1.2 wpg
10g fw planted at 3 wpg cf
SCFatz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
freshwater, salt

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Dude Bigguy6121 Member Introductions 7 02-10-2010 05:06 AM
new dude erictien16 Member Introductions 4 11-09-2009 02:18 PM
Surfer Snail Dude! fish_4_all Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 2 09-15-2006 04:06 PM
all illinios saltys alrmc4 General Retailers 8 09-26-2004 12:40 AM
A laugh for freshys and saltys... lmw80 Aquaria Off-Topic 14 03-07-2004 11:19 AM







» Photo Contest Winners








Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.