API test kits are not accurate when using PRIME

[InfernoST]

Hi Guys
I've been doing some poking around regarding the use of Prime water conditioner and the API test kits that test for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate and found out a few interesting facts. When testing water treated with prime with API test kits for the above mentioned compounds the resulting color produced by the kit isn't an actual representation of the concentration in the water making it extremely difficult to identify what is causing a problem. IE a test for nitrates may yield a color identity of 0 ppm when there is actually 20 to 30 ppm of nitrates in your water. This same symptom also applies to the other tests ammonia and nitrites.
Was or is anyone aware of this?

 

[Zer0]

Glad i don't use prime. Good catch though inferno. I know a couple people that mentioned prime before, so my take is that some of them do use it.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Does this apply to FW test kits as well? I haven't had any problems in my FW tanks, but I plan on getting into SW and it's a good thing to note

 

[mfdrookie516]

I know that prime will "lock" ammonia, therefore showing none on a test. Hadnt heard about the nitrates though.

 

[mdaniel2882]

What do you know. Another good reason not to put chemicals in your saltwater aquarium. I know that it is cheaper to by an RO/DI system than buy water but has anyone ever thought to do a cost analysis on chemicals you must put in your tank if you do not use RO/DI. (PRIME, Phosphate remover, Nitrate remover, Carbon) Not to mention the health of the aquarium. you can get a 4 stage RO system from bulk reef supply for 123.99 or a 5 stage RO/DI for 159.99 (75 gal/day)

 

[neilanh]

Keith would you post the research you found stating this?

 

[thincat]

tagging along on this one.

 

[InfernoST]

Does this apply to FW test kits as well? I haven't had any problems in my FW tanks, but I plan on getting into SW and it's a good thing to note

Yes it also Applies to freshwater, This is where I found out about the problem. People who have fw planted tanks dose nitrates into their tanks and attempt to take readings with some whacky results.

 

[InfernoST]

What do you know. Another good reason not to put chemicals in your saltwater aquarium. I know that it is cheaper to by an RO/DI system than buy water but has anyone ever thought to do a cost analysis on chemicals you must put in your tank if you do not use RO/DI. (PRIME, Phosphate remover, Nitrate remover, Carbon) Not to mention the health of the aquarium. you can get a 4 stage RO system from bulk reef supply for 123.99 or a 5 stage RO/DI for 159.99 (75 gal/day)

I found it quite interesting myself. That's where I got my 5 stage unit and it works great but doesn't help you after the water has been put in the tank. This is where I get angry with the manufacturers because we rely on our test kits to check the health of our tanks and their product render them useless and don't even provide any warnings on the bottle about compatibility issues.

Keith would you post the research you found stating this?

After work I'll go back and find the links and post them, here are few quick links 1 from the seachem site and the other from aquaticplantcentral.com. I found a lot more info on this topic but have back track when I get home from work.

Prime & Chloramine - Seachem Support Forums
NO3 test showed 0 right after 20ppm addition - General Aquarium Plants Discussions - Aquatic Plant Central

This kind of stuff bugs me

 

[CaptainAhab]

Call me skeptical. Before I'd dump on a major manufacturer (or 2) I'd ask these questions.

1) Did you do the test correctly? The nitrate test above all the others has much more laborious instructions on preparing the two solutions. If not mixed properly over the course of using the test the solutions can become not mixed in the proper ratios (in each bottle) thus making all the tests going forward from that point suspect.

2) Has the test kit expired?

3) Are the test kit solutions still viable

4) Did you test known samples? 1 vial pure RO; 1 vial pure RO + a known quantity of nitrate ; 1 vial pure RO + a known quantity of nitrate + Prime and compare the results?

5) Did you dose the Prime correctly?

I also am not clear where you drew the generalization from ammonia and nitrite from. Prime 'locks' ammonia by changing it to ammonium (which is not toxic to fish). You would have to know if your test kit is testing for ammonia and ammonium or just ammonia to gauge your results based on that information.

The nitrite claim I've never heard.

Prime has been around for a very long time and has IMO an unsurpassed reputation in the hobby (I would venture to guess in the other disciplines as well)

Your link above seems to speak to Chloramine, which isn't ammonia nor ammonium.

 

[InfernoST]

Call me skeptical. Before I'd dump on a major manufacturer (or 2) I'd ask these questions.

1) Did you do the test correctly? The nitrate test above all the others has much more laborious instructions on preparing the two solutions. If not mixed properly over the course of using the test the solutions can become not mixed in the proper ratios (in each bottle) thus making all the tests going forward from that point suspect.

2) Has the test kit expired?

3) Are the test kit solutions still viable

4) Did you test known samples? 1 vial pure RO; 1 vial pure RO + a known quantity of nitrate ; 1 vial pure RO + a known quantity of nitrate + Prime and compare the results?

5) Did you dose the Prime correctly?

I also am not clear where you drew the generalization from ammonia and nitrite from. Prime 'locks' ammonia by changing it to ammonium (which is not toxic to fish). You would have to know if your test kit is testing for ammonia and ammonium or just ammonia to gauge your results based on that information.

The nitrite claim I've never heard.

Prime has been around for a very long time and has IMO an unsurpassed reputation in the hobby (I would venture to guess in the other disciplines as well)

Your link above seems to speak to Chloramine, which isn't ammonia nor ammonium.

Like i said I will find the post I found last night where Seachem specifically stated that API test kits for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are affected by the use of prime and will return a false positive or a false negative depending on the circumstances.

The link I provided does get into ammonia even though it's headed cloramine and prime, it's an interesting read I suggest you read the entire thread.

The second link, if you follow the thread and it's links it reveals a lot of anomalies which occur with using prime and testing for nitrates.

I didn't say the product didn't work as advertised what I'm bothered by is the fact you can get false positive or negative readings on a test when using prime and possibly lead that person in the wrong direction when trying to diagnose and fix a problem. I just wanted to bring this to peoples attention that this potential exists. I'm experiencing a false reading with my QT tank on nitrites & nitrate readings(I'm using prime in my QT and have both API and just bought nitrite and nitrate seachem test kits yesterday), they have been stuck @ .25ppm (API test kit) tested with seachem 0ppm, and the nitrates showed up as 0ppm (API) and 40ppm with the seachem and for a month and a half (Impossible and the API test kit is not expired ). This nitrite and nitrate readings being rock steady for long prompted me to investigate the probable cause and the only thing i did differently was use prime. I will find the specific post and put up a link for it and some of the other things I came accross.

 

[CaptainAhab]

I look forward to the other link. I have read the links that were posted and I don't see any conclusions drawn, at least none that I would consider scientific.

To that end, I took 2 samples from my FW tank. I tested the first sample and received a 20ppm nitrate reading. In the second sample I added 1 drop of Prime (which for the sample size would seem to be waaayyyy over adding) and tested for nitrates. The second sample showed the same result as the first. Same color reading.

 

[InfernoST]

I look forward to the other link. I have read the links that were posted and I don't see any conclusions drawn, at least none that I would consider scientific.

To that end, I took 2 samples from my FW tank. I tested the first sample and received a 20ppm nitrate reading. In the second sample I added 1 drop of Prime (which for the sample size would seem to be waaayyyy over adding) and tested for nitrates. The second sample showed the same result as the first. Same color reading.

I wrote a email to seachem tech support regarding what I saw online and what I'm experiencing. Here is the email I sent and the their response.

I would like to know if it is possible to get false positive readings on API Ammonia,Nitrite and Nitrate test kits while using prime in either saltwater or freshwater aquariums. I ask this because I just started using prime to treat my RO/DI water before mixing with salt and putting it in my SW tanks and have noticed my readings to be much different with the use of prime and feel I'm unable to determine exactly what's going on with my water. Can you please clarify the above for me.
Thank You Keith
email2:
SUBMIT.x: 50
SUBMIT.y: 13
SUBMIT: Send
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
REMOTE_HOST: 24.184.55.0
HTTP_USER_AGENT: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.0.14) Gecko/2009082707 Firefox/3.0.14 GTB5 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729)

Hello Keith,

Thanks for the question. When using Prime, it is very possible to get false positive readings. I hope this information is helpful and please let us know if you need any further assistance. Have a great day!

Seachem Support 100215
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc.
1000 Seachem Drive, Madison, GA 30650
888-SEACHEM Fax 706-343-6070
seachem.com - jurassipet.com - watergardenoasis.com - avipet.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I have been using prime in my FW tanks since day one, and I have observed nothing I consider anomalous. I test prior to PWCs and then 1 day after and the dilution of Nitrates matches with the % of WC I perform. Using API kits also. I'll have to read trough the links when I have time.

Are the Seachem tests supposedly compatible with Prime? I would sure frakkin' hope so!!

 

[InfernoST]

I have been using prime in my FW tanks since day one, and I have observed nothing I consider anomalous. I test prior to PWCs and then 1 day after and the dilution of Nitrates matches with the % of WC I perform. Using API kits also. I'll have to read trough the links when I have time.

Are the Seachem tests supposedly compatible with Prime? I would sure frakkin' hope so!!

The seachem tests kits are compatible with prime and is what seachem recommends you use. I on the other hand have mostly API test kits and am experiencing some strange results in my SW tanks. I'm not saying the product doesn't work but if it's not compatible with other test kits it should noted on the bottle.

 

[smilla4]

The seachem tests kits are compatible with prime and is what seachem recommends you use. I on the other hand have mostly API test kits and am experiencing some strange results in my SW tanks. I'm not saying the product doesn't work but if it's not compatible with other test kits it should noted on the bottle.

I'm a bit tired right now and might not be processing this well. So basically according to Seachem:

The API salicylate-based ammonia kit gives you a reading for ammonia whether it's free or "bound" by a dechlorniator.

And Amquel+ is completely incompatible with the API ammonia test kit for unknown reasons.

So how do you tell if there's "free" ammonia in your tank?

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Aquaworld Aquarium - The Ammonia and pH Relationship

It's related to pH. As pH goes up, so does free ammonia. Almost all test kits test for Total Ammonia Nitrogen (TAN). Prime turns ammonia into Ammonium which is harmless, but it will still show the exact same reading on the API test kit before and after adding Prime because TAN stays the same. Nitrifying bacteria use both Ammonia and Ammonium so it won't affect your cycle.

 

[Innovator]

Guess you all have been living in an underwater cavern since this information has been available/known for a very, very long time. Regardless of the product, any chemical that locks or manipulates the water can give false readings and you may received varied results depending on the specific test kit.

If you do not have a test kit that measures "free" ammonia then try not to focus on "Free" NH3 and moreso on "Total," mainly because the unit of measurement of "Total" is larger, thus easier to read and usually you can convert "Total" NH3 to "Free" if need be (ballpark figure). The test manufacturers should have some conversion calculations or tables available. Otherwise, purchase a test kit that measures both "Free" and "Total."

 

[smilla4]

Guess you all have been living in an underwater cavern since this information has been available/known for a very, very long time.

:butt:

 

[InfernoST]

Guess you all have been living in an underwater cavern since this information has been available/known for a very, very long time.

Living in an underwater cavern? You possess a lot of knowledge that I and some others may not, but you really don't have to be an A-Hole about it. I'm doing this SW thing for 4 months and noticed something strange with my readings when I bought prime for my QT and DT and started using it a couple of weeks ago and decided to do some research. So being new to SW and investigating a hunch then finding out my suspicions to be true makes me or anyone else interested in this issue an underwater cave dweller? I guess we are not as gifted as you. I'm glad you're here to help us out.