Bald Faced Newbie - Part II - Water

[jgpa]

OK - water this time.

First off, testing. I am looking at some kits and I like the Hagen Master kit, for its breadth of tests. Can be gotten (relatively) cheaply at thatpetplace for $65 total. I wrote Hagen to ask them some questions, one answer was that each test has enough reagent for 50-100 samples. I asked about the sensitivity of the tests and I stumped the respondent.

What are the thoughts on this test package? With my background, I am totally at home in matching color charts, it is a non-issue for me. Are the tests fairly reliable and the gradations from color to color not too large?

Second - tap. I have a well, should be fairly hard but I have no numbers. I don't expect any issues here, may even have the benefit of a little extra Ca.

Third - flow. I bought a Rena XP2. Will this give me enough flow and turnover (55g)? I've read turnover rates of 5x, 10x, etc. What is the time basis in these numbers, hours? Is this sufficient (see #4 below) for oxygenation? The LFS had no air pumps at all on any of their SW displays.

Fourth - Tank covers. How much is needed to be exposed to atmosphere? I have a 'classic' 55g tank, 48"x13" (roughly), is this surface area/volume ratio high enough I can have some covering or do I need it totally open? The lamp fixture (260W) will sit about 5 inches above the tank top.

OK - now time to contribute something, probably only for the DIY'ers but here it goes anyways:

pH - pH is measured using a glass pH electrode. This electrode generates an internal potential depending on the number (or lack) of hydrogen ions on the outside surface. This potential is compared against a reference electrode. A reference electrode is typically a simple electrode consisiting of a solution of KCl saturated w/ Ag (silver). The solution is kept in place with a porous plug of some sort. The solution must be allowed to slowly weep though this plug into the solution where the pH is being measured.

Many pH electrodes are what are called 'combination' electrodes. That means that the reference and measuring (pH) electrode are combined into one. If you have one of these take a close look at it and you should find a tiny orifice somewhere near the bottom. This is the porous plug to the reference electrode. It may be white as ceramics are a common material for these plugs.

The measuring of the pH can be done simply with a voltmeter. Place the positive lead on the pH electrode wire and the negative on the reference wire. If it is a combination electrode there may only be one wire, with a BNC connector on the end. In this case place the positive lead on the center conductor and the negative lead on the outside of the connector (connected to the shield in the cable which is what the reference is tied to).

A glass pH electrode gives a voltage of 60 mV for every pH unit. A pH of 7 is 0 mV, this is your starting point. Acidic pH's are + mV and alkaline pH's are - mV's. Knowing all this, a tank with a pH of 8.2 should give a mV reading of -72 mV.

Now the rub. The reference electrode over time becomes contaminated, it is a porous plug after all. This causes the mV reading to drift to zero, even for the same pH. In the above 8.2 pH sample, you may get a reading of only -30 mV after even a couple of months of use. This is totally natural and the proper behavior of the electrodes. That is why you have to calibrate with buffers from time to time.

In the voltmeter reading scenario, to get an accurate pH reading you would have to take some measurements and plot the points. To do this you need two (three is better) buffers. In a SW aquarium, buffers of 7 and 9 would be perfect.

Measure the mV reading with the electrodes in each buffer and plot them. Be sure to mark the x- and y-axis with the proper units and values. Connect the two dots (if three you may have to 'fit' a little) and you now have a calibration curve.

Using this curve you can now take a raw mV reading from the electrodes and get the appropriate pH.

 

[fijiwigi]

Ok I got lost in the chemistry discussion (not my cup of tea). But regarding the first question Hagen is good I have some Hagen tests Salifert test kits seem to be the preffered tests on this forum.

2nd With Saltwater RO/DI water is highly reccomended from a RO/DI unit This is the one I have http://www.melevsreef.com/ro_di.html You may find that your well water will test with Nitrates and Phospates that could cause issues later on. Using a RO/DI unit will give you 99.99% pure water.

3rd 10-20x turnover is suggested. Usually from powerheads and sump return pumps.
Canister filters are good for flow but usually kept empty except for some chemical media when needed. You will find a lot of Saltwater aquarists don't even use canister filters just 1.5-2 pound live rock per gallon and some powerheads for flow

4th Having a covered top is really to prevent jumpers other than that not necessary. Pointing a powerhead at the surface of the water will help with Oxygen exchange if you decide to cover the tank.

Do you have a protein skimmer yet? helps with water quality as well.

Seems like you know your stuff and I hope I was helpfull still new at this as well

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

...
Second - tap. I have a well, should be fairly hard but I have no numbers. I don't expect any issues here, may even have the benefit of a little extra Ca..

I wouldn't gloss over this one lightly. Test your well water for everything before you use it. Specifically, nitrates and phosphates. Keeping pristine water conditions is pretty tough if what you're starting off with isn't even close to pristine. Yeah... you might get some extra Ca, but normally there's some bad stuff that comes along with it also. Ca is easy and cheap to increase! There so much stuff that can be in your water - especially well water - that if you end up having issues down the road, you'll never really be able to rule out whether or not it's due to your water.

Also, consistency with your water is important. I started out with filtered tap water, only to later find some nitrates sneaking into the water during the winter months. (I now use DI.) Using tap, you just never know what's in the water from day to day. Using RO/DI, you're pretty much sure you've got pure water each and every day.

Regarding test kits - the only Hagen test kit I have is for phospates, and it was a waste of money. Bought it before I understood what I was doing and only later realized the sensitivity of it stinks. If any color at all shows up on that Hagen test, it's way too much to start with! I use API (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) and Salifert. API tests are a good value for the money, but skip the API nitrate test kit. You can't really get a reading below 10ppm with it. With a Salifert nitrate kit, you can get readings of 0.2ppm. Personally, I use Salifert for nitrate, calcium, phosphates, and magnesium. I use API for ammonia, nitrite, pH, alkalinity, and also calcium from time to time.

 

[roka64]

I agree with the above, but I would add to check your tap for ammonia as well. I am on well water and use a RO/DI unit and test it with a TDS meter.

 

[cmor1701d]

I would also add that you do NOT want to cover your tank with anything solid. Use eggcrate or check the platic netting thread I started. The gas exchange (oxygen/CO2) takes place at the surface of the water. You want the surface of the water to ripple not be flat and smooth. This is usually accomplished by pointing a power head towards the surface. There is no need for airstones oir pumps in a sw tank. All the airstones do is break the surface tension at the surface of the water allowing for the gas exchange. Rippling the surface is better and easier to do.

 

[fijiwigi]

I would also add that you do NOT want to cover your tank with anything solid. Use eggcrate or check the platic netting thread I started.

I am curious about this what is the thread title??
Wouldn't a fish jump threw eggcrate I guess it would have to be a pretty precise leap on the fishes part to make it threw the hole. And I would think that eggcrate on the top of the tank would not look very nice. do you have a photo of what you have done. It sounds interesting. Also If the tank has a glass top it usually is not completely covered there is a space in the back for equipment and air. So even if it is covered and there is a powerhead pointed at the surface wouldn't the Gas exchange still be taking place.

 

[jgpa]

that your well water will test with Nitrates and Phospates that could cause issues later on. Using a RO/DI unit will give you 99.99% pure water.

I was planning on testing anyways - I am absolutely no rush here, still haven't started putting the stuff together. What would you call an acceptable incoming nitrate level? There are going to be nitrates anyway (how much until you have to decant?), so a little coming in wouldn't hurt? I guess it depends on the level. We are in an agricultural area here so I would suspect that the nitrates will be higher.

3rd 10-20x turnover is suggested. Usually from powerheads and sump return pumps.

What is the time frame there? Hours I am guessing, as in 550 to 1100 GPH (55 gal.)

Canister filters are good for flow but usually kept empty except for some chemical media when needed. You will find a lot of Saltwater aquarists don't even use canister filters just 1.5-2 pound live rock per gallon and some powerheads for flow

Really? No benefit of substance at all?

4th Having a covered top is really to prevent jumpers other than that not necessary.

I think a nice stainless screen mesh would work.

Do you have a protein skimmer yet? helps with water quality as well.

Yup. We'll see how it goes once I get the live rock in place. Thanks for the input.

 

[jgpa]

I agree with the above, but I would add to check your tap for ammonia as well. I am on well water and use a RO/DI unit and test it with a TDS meter.

My water comes in through a carbon bed and the a UV system, also a sed filter (we have elemental particulate lead). I *think* ammonia is adsorbed onto the carbon, I can't remember. I would be surprised if the phosphates are.

 

[fijiwigi]

My water comes in through a carbon bed and the a UV system, also a sed filter (we have elemental particulate lead). I *think* ammonia is adsorbed onto the carbon, I can't remember. I would be surprised if the phosphates are.

If you buy a TDS Meter and test it you will find out if your source water has any dissolved solids. I personally like having a RO/DI unit it gives me piece of mind and if a problem presents itself I know it is most likely not the water source. Well worth the investment there are some out there you can get for under 200 dollars. Water quality is the most important factor and with spending thousands of dollars for a reef aquarium the 200dollars for pure water is a valuable percentage of your money invested to be a successful hobbyist

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

If you buy a TDS Meter and test it you will find out if your source water has any dissolved solids.

Any water that is not RO/DI or distilled will have a TDS reading. Especially well water. So a TDS meter on your source wall water won't really tell you much.

I think a nice stainless screen mesh would work.

Seems like a stainless mesh is going to get hot and reflect a lot of light. But if you go that route, just make sure it's a stainless steel that will not corrode with the saltwater splash/spray it will get. All stainless is not equal, nor "stainless" for that matter.

I *think* ammonia is adsorbed onto the carbon, I can't remember. I would be surprised if the phosphates are.

I think you're right... the carbon should take out the ammonia. But some carbon blocks will leach phosphates back into the water. During the manufacturing process, most carbon is rinsed in, I think, phosphoric acid at the end. So there is normally residual phosphates in the carbon. That's why when buying activated carbon for use in filters, it's best to get a high quality grade and not go cheap as the cheaper ones will leach phosphates into your tank.

What would you call an acceptable incoming nitrate level? There are going to be nitrates anyway (how much until you have to decant?), so a little coming in wouldn't hurt? I guess it depends on the level.

For me, acceptable is zero. For you, it all depends on your goal for your tank. I have several LPS corals in my tank as well as my fish and I've been able to keep my nitrates below 1.0ppm (using DI water). And that's where I want them to stay. If you're doing a fish-only tank and think that say 20ppm is acceptable, then you obviously can get away with putting some amount of nitrates in with your fresh water. But just realize that there is more "stuff" in your tap water that we can't test for.

 

[cmor1701d]

Sounds like you have a whole house filter with the first parts of a RODI system. You have the sediment and carbon filters that come before the RO membrane. This is hopefully dropping your tds to the 10 micron or so range. Do you know what size pore you are using in the last stage?

You should probably test your tap water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate. You should also check the tap water for pH. The tests should be run on a fresh sample and one that that has been sitting for 24 hours .

The flow for a tank is in gph, so you are correct in that you want 550 -1100 gph flow in the tank.

LR in the amount of 1½-2 pounds per volume of tank capacity is recommended togther with a protein skimmer for filtration. That elminates the need for a cannister filter. Cannister filters tend to become nitrate factories. Due to their design they can be colonized by the bacteria (aerobic) that convert ammoina to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate, but not the anerobic bacteria that convert nitrate to nitrogen. Algae feeds off nitrate which is why you idealy want zero nitrates in the tank. Many add macro algae to the sump/fuge to take up last few ppm of nitrates to prevent the bad algae from gaining a foothold.

This is my plastic netting thread. Egg crate is normally used for the covering as the openings are also quite small. I'm considering just painting mine black instead of getting the netting.

 

[fijiwigi]

This is my plastic netting thread. Egg crate is normally used for the covering as the openings are also quite small. I'm considering just painting mine black instead of getting the netting.

Now I understand what you were referring to I actually have that same netting at work(free) that I could use we use it for the Playground netting the kids room at work. The challenging part is I have a bowfront cutting the front angle would not be an easy task.

 

[cmor1701d]

Make a template from oak tag or cardboard. Cutting it should not be hard. Use a razor blade and cut one piece at a time. Is there a lip around the inside of the tank rim or do you need this to sit complete on top of the rim?

 

[jgpa]

This is hopefully dropping your tds to the 10 micron or so range. Do you know what size pore you are using in the last stage?

I honestly don't know the sizings of the canister media. I wouldn't think that would have anything to do with tds, maybe the carbon (if it removed anything dissolved).

In my world I use conductivity, not TDS. I see many conductivity meters that flipflop to tds, I think there is a generic conversion used, something like 0.7 ppm = 1 uS/cm????? Good DI/RO will be under 1 uS/cm, I know that.

DIY'ers: Want a basic conductivity (and if using a generic conversion a TDS meter [actually I think all TDS meters are nothing but conductivity meters])? Take a good voltmeter, fix the electrodes a known distance apart, say on a popsicle stick, dip them in the water and measure the resistance. Divide this by the distance (in cm), reciprocate that and that is your conductivity. Ex: The tips are 3.0 cm apart and you measure 3 Megohm resistance. 3 meg divided by 3 (the distance) is 1 meg. Recip of that(1 x 10^6 ohms or 1000000 ohms) is 1 x 10^-6 mhos (or 0.000001 mhos [siemens]). The classic 'micromho' is really a microsiemen, which is a reciprocal ohm (get it? - ohm - mho). Conductivity is a linear measure - so the above is technically 1 uS/cm (1 microsiemen per centimeter). If my old brain is remembering correctly a TDS meter would call that 0.7 ppm.

So when I get going here I will test my water, of course. I expect a conductivity of at least 150 uS/cm, so I should have a min TDS of say 80 ppm. Probably more. Could be double.

You should probably test your tap water for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate.

Yes, all that and I believe one I forgot - Cu. I want some inverts, and I do have copper piping. I hope I don't have a problem w/ any leaching out. I presume any detectable level is a no go for inverts?

LR in the amount of 1½-2 pounds per volume of tank capacity is recommended togther with a protein skimmer for filtration. That elminates the need for a cannister filter. Cannister filters tend to become nitrate factories. Due to their design they can be colonized by the bacteria (aerobic) that convert ammoina to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate, but not the anerobic bacteria that convert nitrate to nitrogen. Algae feeds off nitrate which is why you idealy want zero nitrates in the tank.

That is interesting. Looks like I may be exchanging the filter pump for a powerhead setup. I hadn't even considered a sump setup but I guess I will have to now. I am looking at almost 20 GPM. That is a LOT of flow, can you point to a diagram or picture of a 'classic' setup using a sump/powerhead? This is going to be in my living room so I would like it as neat and dry as possible.

Seems like a stainless mesh is going to get hot and reflect a lot of light.

I think if the mesh is modestly large enough there shouldn't be a heat issue.

I have several LPS corals in my tank as well as my fish and I've been able to keep my nitrates below 1.0ppm (using DI water). And that's where I

So what is the max permissable NO3 for a coral/LR tank? Is that 1.0 ppm a good solid # or one that you prefer to keep on the very safe side?

Thx everyone.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

For a reef setup, I don't think there is any real "maximum" for nitrates. It's always "as near zero as possible" because no matter what the number, it'll always be less in the ocean and nitrates have far more negative effects on corals than fish. Same goes for phosphates. Here's a handy chart I've referred folks to...

Ideal Water Parameters for Your Marine, Freshwater, Brackish Aquarium, or Pond

Regarding copper tubing, here's an observation I'll pass on:

I don't use RO/DI, but I run my city supplied, municipal tap water through a Kold-Steril filter (google it if you want more info, but it's just a glorified water filter) and then through DI resin. The KoldSteril filter uses a product called a PolyFilter that changes colors as it adsorbs stuff. The color it changes varies with what it sucks up. I change mine every year, and those pads are always the prettiest deep blue color at the end of the year. Blue is the color the pads turn when they are taking copper out of the water.

Granted, many salt mixes have stuff in them that will "neutralize" the heavy metals supposedly, but it's nice to have the piece of mind that I know exactly what's in my water when I put my salt mix into it, and that it's the same every single time.

 

[jgpa]

For a reef setup, I don't think there is any real "maximum" for nitrates. It's always "as near zero as possible" because no matter what the number, it'll always be less in the ocean and nitrates have far more negative effects on corals than fish. Same goes for phosphates. Here's a handy chart I've referred folks to...

Ideal Water Parameters for Your Marine, Freshwater, Brackish Aquarium, or Pond

Thx for the chart, now I have a better idea. I also see that I am going to have to rethink things a little. One premise was that when things are stable and established, I would have a system that would have a relative static nitrogen load, at least over the time frame of up to two weeks. That would allow us to travel w/out having to worry about someone coming in and decanting. I gather this is still possible if NO3 converting organisms are plentiful, such as in a sump or refugium?

 

[cmor1701d]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]From Are TDS meters really conductivity meters? [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Yes. While EC and TDS are often used synonymously, there are some important differences to note. EC, when applied to water, refers to the electrical charge of a given water sample. TDS refers to the total amount of substances in the water other than the pure H2O. The only true way of measuring TDS is to evaporate the water and weigh what’s left. Since this is near impossible to do for the average person, is it possible to estimate the TDS level by measuring the EC of the water. Every digital TDS meter in the world is actually an EC meter. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]All elements have some electrical charge. Therefore, it is possible to closely estimate the quantity of TDS by determining the EC of the water. However, since different elements have different charges, it is necessary to convert the EC to TDS using a scale that mimics the charge of that water type. The following are the most common water samples, and for the <A class=mainlinks href="http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/com100.html" target=_self>COM-100, each has its own conversion factor: [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]KCl: Potassium Chloride is the international standard to calibrate instruments that measure conductivity. The COM-100 is factory calibrated with a 1413 microsiemens solution is the default mode is EC-KCl. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]442TM: Developed by the Myron L Company, 442TM simulates the properties of natural water (rivers, lakes, wells, drinking water, etc.) with a combination of 40% Sodium Bicarbonate, 40% Sodium Sulfate and 20% Chloride. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]NaCl: Sodium Chloride is used in water where the predominate ions are NaCl, or whose properties are similar to NaCl, such as seawater and brackish water. Measurements in EC (µS) do not have a conversion factor, but do require the correct setting for the proper temperature coefficient. [/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]---------------------------------------------------[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]From What is TDS by Randy Holmes-Farley[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]"Can I Just Use a Multimeter to Measure Conductivity?"[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]No. Several factors make it impossible to accurately measure conductivity with a standard multimeter. The size and shape of the electrodes are significant, but more important is what happens at those electrodes. If a DC current is applied to seawater, numerous reactions take place when the ions hit the electrodes. Some ions will plate out on the electrodes, some may bubble off as gases, and the electrodes themselves may dissolve. These and other effects all serve to change the nature of the solution at the electrode, impacting the measured conductivity.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]So how do conductivity probes get around this problem? They use an AC current rather than DC. Using fields that oscillate very rapidly, there is no overall movement of ions toward one electrode or the other. The ions move one way for a tiny fraction of a second, and then back the other direction for the second half of the cycle. Overall, the solution and electrodes stay unchanged and the conductivity is accurately measured. Modern conductivity meters use complex AC waveforms to minimize additional complications such as capacitance, which can interfere with simple conductivity measurements.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]==========================[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Copper pipes rarely leach enough to cause a problem, but testing is a good idea.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Checkout Melevs reef pages for sump/fuge designs and DIY ideas. Here is a 29g with a photo of the full setup.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]The stainless mesh is going to get hot if you have enough lighting for corals and are not using LEDs for your lighting. If the mesh is wide enough to prevent that then it is probably too wide to prevent fish from jumping out, and is therefore not needed. If all depends on your list of livestock as to whether you need to cover it for jumpers or not.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]1200 gph of flow would be ideal for your tank. Is that after taking head height of the returns into account? [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Nitrates under 5 or 10 MAY not hurt. The ideal is 0 ppm of nitrate. I'm finally down to under 1 (using the Salifert test kit).[/FONT]

 

[jgpa]

[...]
[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Copper pipes rarely leach enough to cause a problem, but testing is a good idea.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Checkout Melevs reef pages for sump/fuge designs and DIY ideas. Here is a 29g with a photo of the full setup.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]

Thanks, that is most helpful.
[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]1200 gph of flow would be ideal for your tank. Is that after taking head height of the returns into account? [/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Just trying to see what flow at the tank I can get away with, I'll have to size accordingly for the head.

[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, arial, helvetica]Nitrates under 5 or 10 MAY not hurt. The ideal is 0 ppm of nitrate. I'm finally down to under 1 (using the Salifert test kit).[/FONT]

It sure seems that is attainable with a sump/refugium. If I can get a nice stable environment going, w/ skimmer, from what I am gathering here I can have a tank that can go 2 weeks w/out decanting. That would be very nice.

Assuming my NO3 is not outrageous from the well, if I have nitrate eaters present, even using the well make-up for periodic maintenance may not be a NO3 shock, I am hoping.

I checked conductivity and am at 380 uS/cm. Meter hasn't been calibrated in a while.

 

[cmor1701d]

From the What is TDS article... "Normal seawater has a conductivity of about 53 mS/cm. For reference, the conductivity of totally pure water is 0.055 mS/cm. . .

True TDS meters (that only give output in TDS units) . . . typically convert the conductivity reading into the ppm concentration of some salt that would give the same measured conductivity. For example, it might be set to give as its output the concentration of sodium chloride (NaCl) that would give that same conductivity. So if the device detected 447 mS/cm, it might display that as 215.5 ppm, as that is the concentration of sodium chloride that gives that same conductivity. "

Is your meter DC or AC?

My tap water is between 180 -230 ppm on my tds meter. My RO water is normally around 10 and the final output from the DI is 0.

Please define "decanting' for us. I'm not sure if you are referring to a PWC (partial water change) or skimming.

Two weeks is a very long time to go without maintenance. What will you do for top off water for the evaporation during that period. What about feeding?

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Assuming my NO3 is not outrageous from the well, if I have nitrate eaters present, even using the well make-up for periodic maintenance may not be a NO3 shock, I am hoping.

What are your nitrate and phosphate levels in your tap water, by the way? You're going to need those test kits anyway, so might as well buy them now and test your tap water so you know for sure what you have.

Also... cmore beat me to it about the stainless steel mesh. It WILL get hot, even with compact flourescents. And if the mesh size is big enough... well... what cmore said!