Building frag tank system

[clearerphish]

OK, looking at setting up a frag tank to grow into an online business soon. Probably going to use one or two 55G to start, or maybe a 40 or 50g long. If I just have coral frags set on a substrate of crushed coral (with maybe an eggcrate shelf or two) - how much LR am I really going to need? With a practically non-existant bio-load I'm thinking I can probably get away with about 10 lbs LR in a corner or something, but I don't really know for sure. Does anyone have any advice? If things go well we have big plans for expansion, but for now, just 2 55g tanks - one for LPS/softies and one for SPS/clams.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Ziggy953]

Hmmm...well I would say if it is at all possible to do so plumb your frag system in with your main display.

If I were to have a stand alone frag system I would pretty much mimic my display setup. Sump with rubble tower, fuge with lots of macro and a skimmer. It is the corals of our systems that require the more pristine water conditions. If you are planning on starting a frag business then water quality needs to be your focus in the beginning. With out the water quality you aren't going to get the growth and with out the growth you aren't going to have as much to sale/resale.

I would also suggest a wider and lower tank instead of the 55s. I'm using a 55 because I had one on hand and ready. My ideal frag system would be no more then 12" tall, and as wide and long as I could get it.

 

[Chisel]

Here in Jersey, we have a Pets Plus store that has a big frag tank. This tank is only about 12" tall and maybe 5' x 4'. Its rimless and the water is constantly flowing over. I'm not sure what kind of filtration they use but the only live rock that is in the tank are the small pieces with mushrooms and zoos attached to them. All others are attached to those little frag discs. They dont use a substrate. The whole floor is egg crate.

Here is a decent article on frag tanks.

Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: The "Fragging" Phenomenon

 

[clearerphish]

Thanks for all the help. Plumbing the frag tank into my existing system is not really an option because the frag tanks will be moved into our retail space by the first of the year. Great article on frag tanks but it doesn't really answer my question. If I were to use something that looked like a 40L or a 50L, how many lbs of LR do I really need in the tank with that water volume? there will be no fish in the tank, just frags and crushed coral substrate for PH buffering.

Most LFS have the LR tanks plumbed into the overall system so you may not see any LR in the tanks, but it's in the system. Eventually these frag tanks will be converted to QT tanks so that's another reason I do not want them plumbed into the system. At that time we'll have 4x4 shallow frag tanks with cener overflows plumbed into a bigger water system - probably 2 200g reservoirs for separate fish and reef systems.

 

[ccCapt]

crushed coral substrate for PH buffering.

I don't know where this comes from, but it is not true, at least not in a sw tank. Calcium carbonate (crushed coral, aragonite) does not start dissloving unless the pH is around 7.5 - 7.3. If it's not dissolving, it's not buffering.

What exactly is your plan for these frags, if you don't mind me asking? Do you plan on buying colonies and frag them to sell? Thats probably how to make the most $ the fastest way.
Are you going to buy frags and just resell them?
You won't make a whole lot of $ waiting for a frag to grow into a colony big enough to frag and sell.

 

[Ziggy953]

Thanks for all the help. Plumbing the frag tank into my existing system is not really an option because the frag tanks will be moved into our retail space by the first of the year. Great article on frag tanks but it doesn't really answer my question. If I were to use something that looked like a 40L or a 50L, how many lbs of LR do I really need in the tank with that water volume? there will be no fish in the tank, just frags and crushed coral substrate for PH buffering.

Most LFS have the LR tanks plumbed into the overall system so you may not see any LR in the tanks, but it's in the system. Eventually these frag tanks will be converted to QT tanks so that's another reason I do not want them plumbed into the system. At that time we'll have 4x4 shallow frag tanks with cener overflows plumbed into a bigger water system - probably 2 200g reservoirs for separate fish and reef systems.

You are going to need some form of filtration even if you don't have fish in there. Coral needs better water quality then fish do. If you don't want LR in the tanks (I don't suggest it either) tie them together and have a common sump with your LR, skimmer and fuge. All three of those filtration components are important IMO to have health corals.

As was asked above what are your plans? Is this just going to be a holding tank for frags you are going to resale? Are you going to grow out corals to frag? Depending on what you are planning you may not need all that filtration at all and simple PWCs will take care of things for you.

 

[clearerphish]

Well, basically I'm living the dream.

One of my customers has a lot of cash - he's well off. He used to be in the saltwater fish importing game and he wants to get back into it. maybe sell enough online to recoup his costs and get some nice fish for his fish room while he's at it.

He has no knowledge of coral but loves looking at my tanks and we've spent hours and hours talking about coral and fragging (which I've done an extensive amount of in the last year and a half - I have frags all over both my nanos) and he's decided to invest some coral as well. I put together a brief proposal for him. He entrusted me with 2k starter fund and as much as 7k to do what I need.

My goal is to do precisely what he asked - set up a small ebay business so the coral/fish pays for itself and anything else is gravy. He's completely aware that I plan on taking frags of all interesting livestock for my own tanks and he's totally cool with it. So my intentions are to make a frag propagation center, buy some premium colonies which I intend to chop up into frags and then mount on large pieces of LR to then grow into colonies. I'm not planning on being commercially available for around a year.

All I need to do is keep the water params in check, build a website, and collect free coral for the forseeable future.


now for the tanks - there would be a canister filter on each with LR rubble and each frag would probably start mounted on at least a 1/2 lb chunk of LR so there will be LR in the tank and canister, but no "reef wall" structure. One of the other things I liked about the crushed coral substrate is that if any frags fell to the tank floor they could attach themself to a small piece of the cc which could then be superglued to a larger piece of LR. Again, I do not want to plumb these because when we migrate to the 4'x4'x1' coral tanks these two tanks will be my incoming shipment QT tanks - one for LPS/softies and one for SPS/clams.

 

[Chisel]

Hmmm... I never thought about putting rubble into my canister filter. Has anybody else done this? What are the pro's and cons?

 

[clearerphish]

I don't know where this comes from, but it is not true, at least not in a sw tank. Calcium carbonate (crushed coral, aragonite) does not start dissloving unless the pH is around 7.5 - 7.3. If it's not dissolving, it's not buffering.

I thought that's why we all make sure to use aragonite substrate in our reef tanks? If not, why else do most reefers go to that expense?

 

[ccCapt]

We use it because it comes from the ocean and we know it's safe.
You can use whatever you want as a substrate, keeping in mind the problems that may occur. You can use silica playsand, but do you know exactly what's in it and where it came from? Some forms of silica are soluable. You can use pulverised limestone, but what other impurities are in it? You can even use glass marbles, but they will accumulate all kinds of crap. There are lots of things that can be used, just know what they can potentially do to the system.

 

[clearerphish]

We use it because it comes from the ocean and we know it's safe.

I have read so many articles over the years that recommend crushed coral or aragonite primarily because of their Ph buffering capability. Is all of this incorrect and faulty information?

 

[ccCapt]

I would call it inaccurate.
A calcium reactor is filled with reactor media, which is calcium carbonate in 1 form or another. Could be crushed coral, aragonite, sea shells, etc. Now run that reactor without adding the co2. What happens? Nothing. Why? Because the pH must be 7.5-7.3 before the media starts to dissolve. This is why co2 is needed. You must drop the pH of the water so it can dissolve the media.
Now if you have a very deep sand bed, it is possible the pH deep within the sandbed can get low enough to dissolve some aragonite, but it would just precipitate back out of solution when it hit the higher pH water. It would not have any buffering affect.

 

[Ziggy953]

Well, basically I'm living the dream.

One of my customers has a lot of cash - he's well off. He used to be in the saltwater fish importing game and he wants to get back into it. maybe sell enough online to recoup his costs and get some nice fish for his fish room while he's at it.

He has no knowledge of coral but loves looking at my tanks and we've spent hours and hours talking about coral and fragging (which I've done an extensive amount of in the last year and a half - I have frags all over both my nanos) and he's decided to invest some coral as well. I put together a brief proposal for him. He entrusted me with 2k starter fund and as much as 7k to do what I need.

My goal is to do precisely what he asked - set up a small ebay business so the coral/fish pays for itself and anything else is gravy. He's completely aware that I plan on taking frags of all interesting livestock for my own tanks and he's totally cool with it. So my intentions are to make a frag propagation center, buy some premium colonies which I intend to chop up into frags and then mount on large pieces of LR to then grow into colonies. I'm not planning on being commercially available for around a year.

All I need to do is keep the water params in check, build a website, and collect free coral for the forseeable future.


now for the tanks - there would be a canister filter on each with LR rubble and each frag would probably start mounted on at least a 1/2 lb chunk of LR so there will be LR in the tank and canister, but no "reef wall" structure. One of the other things I liked about the crushed coral substrate is that if any frags fell to the tank floor they could attach themself to a small piece of the cc which could then be superglued to a larger piece of LR. Again, I do not want to plumb these because when we migrate to the 4'x4'x1' coral tanks these two tanks will be my incoming shipment QT tanks - one for LPS/softies and one for SPS/clams.

Do you have a successful reef tank set up? What kind of corals do you have in it? How long has it been set up? What kind of equipment do you have on your system?

I think you are going to find that for optimal growth in your corals a canister filter and CC substrate are not the way to go. If you are going to take a year before going "public" then you are going to need excellent filtration on your frag system. I have been growing frags for about a year and a half now. Believe me when I tell you there is a lot more to it then a tank with water and a canister filter. You need flow, lighting, filtration more then likely you will need to dose CA and Mg.

My advice is to a) Drill the tanks and plumb them together and have a large common sump packed with LR and a fuge full of macro or b) use overflows and plumb the tanks together and have a large common sump packed with LR and a fuge full of macro. Have you considered going bare bottom with the frag system? You aren't going to get buffering from the CC and without a sandy bottom you can easily siphon any gunk off the bottom.

 

[Ziggy953]

I have read so many articles over the years that recommend crushed coral or aragonite primarily because of their Ph buffering capability. Is all of this incorrect and faulty information?

Can you post links to these articles? I would like to read them also.

 

[Ziggy953]

Hmmm... I never thought about putting rubble into my canister filter. Has anybody else done this? What are the pro's and cons?

We usually recommend to people using canisters to put rubble in one of the compartments to aid in filtration. My thinking is that nature does such a darn good job of filtering why not follow and try and mimic as best as we can??

 

[clearerphish]

Do you have a successful reef tank set up? What kind of corals do you have in it? How long has it been set up? What kind of equipment do you have on your system?

I have:

-10 gallon nano in my office, been up for 2 years. 25-30lbs live rock, 20 lbs live sand. 1 penguin 550 ph, 1 maxi jet mini powerhead. HOB filter filled with LR rubble. Current 80w PC fixture. Visi-therm stealth heater. Tank has:
1 two head hammer
1 single head frogspawn
12-15 assorted zoanthid/paly colonies
large pearl bubble coral
favia brain colony
pink lobophyllia brain
2 large colonies green star polyps
2 head blue candy cane
1 colony daisy polyps
7 assorted ricordea polyps
small colony clove polyps
10-15 assorted frags of the above sprinkled throughout the tank

-20 gallon nano in my home, been up for 8 months, before that was a 15 gallon nano that got upgraded that was up for 8-9 months. 60+ lbs live rock, 40 lbs. Live sand. 3 maxi jet PHs, Aqualight pro lighting fixture - 1 150w HQI MH, 2
65w actinics. Visi-therm stealth heater. Fluval 205 canister filter filled with LR rubble, SeaClone 100 protein skimmer
Tank has:
6 head Duncanopsammia
4 head frogspawn (office nano is frag)
4 head blue candy cane (office nano is frag)
4 head branching hammer (office nano is frag)
1 medium pink stylophora
1 large colony green center blastomussa
1 medium pagoda cup
1 green bali slimer acro
1 small pink birds nest
1 small cadmium pocillopora
medium yellow porites colony
1 medium hydnophora
6-10 small colonies assorted mushrooms
2 pink ricordea polyps
2 green ricordea polyps
1 orange monti cap
1 small superman encrusting monti
around 10-15 zoo colonies assorted
1 medium green star polyps colony
colony of yellow polyps
2 head rose candy cane
1 medium yellow/red gorgonian

and two large tanks (180 FOWLR and 210 Reef) that I have been maintaining for residential customers for about 3 months (180) and 7 months (210)

I'm not new to reefing, fragging or SW but I've also not been in the hobby for 10+ years, either. I do feel that I have enough of a knack for SW reef to benefit for my arrangement with the owner though.

I think you are going to find that for optimal growth in your corals a canister filter and CC substrate are not the way to go. If you are going to take a year before going "public" then you are going to need excellent filtration on your frag system. I have been growing frags for about a year and a half now. Believe me when I tell you there is a lot more to it then a tank with water and a canister filter. You need flow, lighting, filtration more then likely you will need to dose CA and Mg.

And again, when we move into the retail space at the first of the year a more complete system will be completely designed from the ground up with 4x4x1 coral tanks and sumps and pro grade filtration etc. the current tanks that I am about to set up will then be the holding / QT area for new arrivals. I AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE A BUSINESS WITH THESE TANKS I AM SETTING UP RIGHT NOW - I just need a place to house my growing frag collection (and a few livestock acquisitions I haven't been able to resist) so I can get them out of my home and office tanks for a few months while maintaining the ability to integrate these tanks into the later setup as QT tanks for new arrivals.

My advice is to a) Drill the tanks and plumb them together and have a large common sump packed with LR and a fuge full of macro or b) use overflows and plumb the tanks together and have a large common sump packed with LR and a fuge full of macro. Have you considered going bare bottom with the frag system? You aren't going to get buffering from the CC and without a sandy bottom you can easily siphon any gunk off the bottom.

I would actually prefer bare bottom if the substrate is not going to buffer the PH. I suppose a fuge is a good idea even at first. If plumbing is really the answer, for obvious reasons I would prefer to use overflows.

Thanks for all your help, folks. I appreciate it.

 

[Ziggy953]

I didn't mean to sound like I was suggesting you didn't know what you were doing. I asked the questions I asked to get an idea of your knowledge and experience level. I haven't been in the hobby for 10 years either, at least not with SW. I have done a lot of trial and error, what I have found to be most beneficial to good coral health is excellent filtration. I get that through mostly natural sources, LR, LS fuge and then my skimmer. I also do PWCs every other week without fail. Even if you are only setting things up for a short period of time you will still want to do it as best you can. I just don't think canister filters are going to give you the water quality you want. Lighting, water quality and flow are very important to SPS growth. My recomendation is always to have a sump with a fuge when dealing with corals. If you decide for now to go with canister filters I would make sure to do frequent water changes and have pleanty of flow in your frag tanks.

 

[clearerphish]

No problem, I wasn't offended or anything, and your answers make sense.